How do your forms/katas progress?

[skribs]

my legs,are three foot long,I've just taken a Football and my dog in the park, marked two foot, and toe ended the ball the length of the Football field, the dog brings it back , I'm not sure what you are having difficulty with, you spin on the,standing foot, which remain steadfast at two foot away, you can work it out if you do a bit of Pythagoras

Then you're in range of a scissor kick.

Unless you're fighting Tyrion Lannister or an 8 year old.

 

[jobo]

Then you're in range of a scissor kick.

Unless you're fighting Tyrion Lannister or an 8 year old.

how am i in i in range, I'm two foot away , has this person got telescopic legs

 

[skribs]

how am i in i in range, I'm two foot away , has this person got telescopic legs

How many people do you know with legs shorter than 2 feet long?

You yourself said your legs are three feet long. You also said you have long legs. Are your legs twice as long as anyone else's?

Even then, maybe you've answered your own original question. If your legs are so outlandishly long that you can kick someone while out of range of a scissor kick, then maybe it's a tactic unique to you. Just like the tactic of pick-them-up-and-throw-them is unique to bodybuilders. Schools aren't going to teach tactics that only apply to people with legs outside the statistical norm.

 

[jobo]

How many people do you know with legs shorter than 2 feet long?

You yourself said your legs are three feet long. You also said you have long legs. Are your legs twice as long as anyone else's?

Even then, maybe you've answered your own original question. If your legs are so outlandishly long that you can kick someone while out of range of a scissor kick, then maybe it's a tactic unique to you. Just like the tactic of pick-them-up-and-throw-them is unique to bodybuilders. Schools aren't going to teach tactics that only apply to people with legs outside the statistical norm.

I'm two foot away from the nearest point

 

[oftheherd1]

Yep. Dog Style Kung Fu (Dishu Quan) specialises in takedowns and ground fighting using mainly the feet and legs to trap and control your opponent. That said, it's a pretty rare style and I doubt your average lout on the street would know more than just flailing their legs at you when they are down.

Dishu Quan is actually a really fascinating style to study, as it gives you a completely different take on ground fighting.

There's some really great stuff in there. Thanks for posting.

 

[oftheherd1]

that looks more like a buster Keaton thing than a serious demo,

I suggest you go back and take another look. Multiple replays of the attack and response may help you see what you are missing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's some really great stuff in there. Thanks for posting.

What I like about this style is the fast get back up from the ground skill that's missing in the most MA systems training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm kicking what ever is two foot away from me

My point is, unless you are kicking the ends of his arms or legs, you're within reach of his hands and feet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What I like about this style is the fast get back up from the ground skill that's missing in the most MA systems training.

I'm not enamored of that kind of get back up. I prefer a tactical approach, which is harder to interrupt and doesn't require the sheer athleticism of most of this.

 

[skribs]

I'm two foot away from the nearest point

If you're 2 feet away from my ribs, I can scissor kick you.

You don't seem to understand that the person on the ground will have BETTER reach than you, because their path from their hip to your ankle and knee is basically a straight line, while from your hip to their ribs is the hypotenuse.

 

[_Simon_]

Great thread, a little off topic goodness, but tends to be some value in that at times

I've started a few discussions in the past on curriculums and how they progress, including advancement of patterns, what a white belt should know, and varying teaching styles. I guess the concept of learning itself is fascinating to me. Now, I'm curious about the progression of kata.

My understanding is that the purpose of kata, regardless of what art or style you practice, is to contain a progressive understanding of the material. That a student who has learned all the katas in your art should have a pretty firm understanding of the art.

Now, katas themselves can vary widely. In Taekwondo, for example, I think that training in hand techniques is generally left up to forms, but kicking techniques are taught separately as drills. There are some kicks in the forms, but usually not nearly as many as Taekwondo uses in competitions and demonstrations. However, my school has punch and kick combinations that are rote memorized drills, so you could consider those to be part of the kata, and then most of those techniques start to sound covered under kata.

However, I'm curious about kata themselves. What is it that a kata teaches, and what is it that each kata in a curriculum teaches?

At my school, Basic Form #1 teaches the basic pattern. Basic Forms #2 & 3 each take Form #1 and add new concepts to it. These are taught at the same belt and you could almost reverse the order. Basic Form #4 combines 2 & 3 together, and I kind of think of it as the first real form. Like Forms #1-3 break down most of the concepts in Form #4.

After that form, meaning Basic Form #5 and Advanced Forms #1-8, each form adds a couple of new techniques, some new footwork, new concepts, and some increased level of complexity or intricacy. For example, the basic forms all follow an A-B-A-B-A pattern, while Advanced Form #1 is more like A-B-A(2)-B(2)-A, Advanced Form #3 is A-B-C-D-E (but uses the same basic shape as the basic forms) and Advanced Form #7 has a completely different pattern and none of the parts repeat.

As to techniques, Basic Form #5 uses spinning footwork, Advanced Form #3 has backwards motion and different styles of direction change, and Advanced Form #5 has forward-backward wave-like motions. The forms include new techniques, like Scissor Block, spear-hand thrust, supported 2-hand blocks, and more intricate striking combinations.

So, to summarize, I'd say that the way my school does katas, each kata builds on what the student already knows, by reinforcing old concepts and techniques, but also adding new ones. Sort of like how in algebra class you still practice your basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division when you are trying to find X.

However, I'm curious about other arts, or even Taekwondo schools that have different forms. Do your forms teach isolated concepts, such as one form focused on footwork, another focused on defense, another focused on hand strikes, another on throws? Does each form have its own theme, such as defense against certain types of attacks, or techniques of a particular variety? Or do your forms build on each other and reinforce previous concepts while adding new ones?

There definitely seems to be progression in complexity of kata as ranks increase, but what's odd is the way that sometimes higher ranking kata can be placed earlier in the curriculum, and vice versa. I've seen Sanchin placed from the start at 10th kyu level, and elsewhere at 4th kyu (my previous style started it from here, or needing to know it for your 4th kyu grading). Seen Saifa taught at 7th kyu, and others for your 1st Dan. Seiunchin at 3rd kyu and elsewhere 3rd dan. There's really quite a discrepancy huh!

So it really does depend on the style, and how the kata are viewed. But I do wonder how they classify them and decide which ones are more complex or are more of a progression than others? Because there's quite a difference in placement of curriculum.. and also with katas being performed slightly differently in each style whether this has any bearing on why..

The kata does not change. It's your understanding, or lack of it that changes. As you advance it hopefully gets better. Levels in kata? Real kata is a breakdown of a waza.

So I guess if you can make up kata, you can make up levels

I like that, definitely one's understanding of kata deepens over time, so you can even see it as progression occurring just within the individual katas, rather than having a need to progress to different ones. Even doing something as simple as Taikyoku Ichi, I'm constantly finding new depths to it.

It's as though you get the bare bones basics of the mechanics, then work on the subtleties, then see how those subtleties affect other sequences within it, and work on the interplay, transitions and flows.

My first style had for most grades each kata repeated for two grades, with a new one learned every second grade. It was expected that performing it for the first grading would be the basics of it, and the next grade you should be showing deeper understanding, progression and improvement from the other grading. I thought that was pretty cool. But not sure that was recorded or monitored.

 

[_Simon_]

@skribs
what you are asking is going to be very dependent on the style. i think you know that but i am not sure you are aware of the width and scope of the differences. the one constant across the many sources is that kata is a way of transmitting the "feel" of the style. i always use music as a comparison. there are only so many notes on a scale. there are scales that link matching notes together. and yet there are diverse styles of music. blues, rock, country or jazz they all share the same notes. but there is a feel to the music that is undeniablly distinct for each. they are separated by something that cannot be taught through a sheet of paper with lines and dots on it. in the same way each martial art style has a distinct way of moving. you cannot learn this feel by the segments of movement or "notes" but only though the entire composition of a kata.
one purpose of kata is to teach the feel of the style. without the kata the feel will be lost and the heart of the style will die.
another facet of kata is to serve as a vehicle to pass on a catalog of technique / waza.

This was an awesome post, thanks for that hoshin1600, really made me think. Kata is a way of transmitting the "feel" of the style, I quite like that .

I don't know of any (which is why I asked). But I was thinking there could be a kata that focuses on footwork, one on hand strikes, one on kicks, one on blocking techniques, and one on take-downs and throws.

Alternatively, there could be a kata focused on defenses against a punch, one on defenses against kicks, defenses against grabs, tactics against multiple opponents, and an aggressive kata.

Yeah I'm not too sure if there are kata that are that specific, well I haven't found many, but I know kata like Tsuki No kata really focus on stance transition and has mostly punches (only one kick), and kata like Yantsu has quite a few wrist grab escapes.

They do certainly seem to have themes, even the translations of names utterly fascinates me. And whilst I'm sure a lot here may think it's a bit 'woo-woo', I quite like the specific names and interpretations, and also trying to embody the spirit of that particular theme/emotion/attitude for that kata, brings a whole new life to it I reckon (Sanchin: 3 battles, Seiunchin: grab and pull in battle, Kururunfa: Holding Ground / Forever Stops, Peacefulness and Tearing)

 

[jobo]

If you're 2 feet away from my ribs, I can scissor kick you.

You don't seem to understand that the person on the ground will have BETTER reach than you, because their path from their hip to your ankle and knee is basically a straight line, while from your hip to their ribs is the hypotenuse.

i think you need to try this real world, you can flail you legs about, but you not going to get any notable power lay on your back, you can make yourself a difficult target,by trying to keep you legs between us, but i can move as well either to the side. To continue kicking your ribs or back wards out of range, being kicked on the soles of your feet/ ankles is both painful and debilitating, if that's the only target you present.

I've demonstrated how limited the techneque your suggesting is, by simple expedient of jumping over the attempted scissor kick and landing with both feet on my oppoinent chest,

, if thats what they are teaching you its fantasy ma your learning,

 

[jobo]

My point is, unless you are kicking the ends of his arms or legs, you're within reach of his hands and feet.

by end of his arms and legs do you mean hands and feet, ? Both of those are good, pain full and effective targets

id point out that the alternative you suggested of the low/ kneeling punch very much brings you in to range of hands and feet, only then you have far less mobility to dodge them

 

[jobo]

I suggest you go back and take another look. Multiple replays of the attack and response may help you see what you are missing.

its literally, an entertainment out on to entertain an audience, with a very compliant partner putting him self in the exact position for the next move and falling on command. in that context its extremely well done,

the effectiveness in any other context is extremely debatable, I'm sure some of those moves will work some of the time against some people. I am definitely sure that all of them won't work all of the time against most people.

if they don't work you find your self lay on the floor in the middle of a fight, which is not the best place to be. The very best you can say for it, is it's a fairly high risk strategy

 

[oftheherd1]

its literally, an entertainment out on to entertain an audience, with a very compliant partner putting him self in the exact position for the next move and falling on command. in that context its extremely well done,

the effectiveness in any other context is extremely debatable, I'm sure some of those moves will work some of the time against some people. I am definitely sure that all of them won't work all of the time against most people.

if they don't work you find your self lay on the floor in the middle of a fight, which is not the best place to be. The very best you can say for it, is it's a fairly high risk strategy

Are you saying that this is the only set of techniques in any accepted art that " ...
all of them won't work all of the time against most people?" And that there is no chance of practice making them work against people, who even if trained well in their art, are not trained in those defenses shown?

Are there techniques in your art that in are perhaps not highly effective in all circumstances, but are very useful in some circumstances if you are well trained in them?

 

[oftheherd1]

I'm not enamored of that kind of get back up. I prefer a tactical approach, which is harder to interrupt and doesn't require the sheer athleticism of most of this.

I can agree, but I suppose if you continually train, you may be able to pull that off. What worries me most is the breakfalls being done. I mean if that is the best you can accomplish given the way you were thrown, so be it. But coming down on the toe of one foot, and on the elbow in another breakfall scares me. But as I said, he seems to make it work, so perhaps all people could with enough conditioning and practice.

 

[jobo]

Are you saying that this is the only set of techniques in any accepted art that " ...
all of them won't work all of the time against most people?" And that there is no chance of practice making them work against people, who even if trained well in their art, are not trained in those defenses shown?

Are there techniques in your art that in are perhaps not highly effective in all circumstances, but are very useful in some circumstances if you are well trained in them?

yes that's very much what I'm saying, though there,a variations on theme. If a techneque isn't going to work all of the time against most people OR most of the time against all people, then its of very limited practical use. if it's failure also outs you in a most disadvantaged position, then it's down right dangerous to attempt anywhere were the consequences of failure are getting your head kicked in, rather then just losing a points match.

yes there are any number of techniques in my art that i did miss as fantasy, if I'm in,doubt i ask the instructor to demonstrate then on me, whilst i resist, if they don't work when exercised by a black belt on me, then i can be fairly sure they won't work reliably enough to stake my life on them no matter how much i practise

 

[Gerry Seymour]

by end of his arms and legs do you mean hands and feet, ? Both of those are good, pain full and effective targets

Both of those are also pretty easy to move out of the way. Much easier than the big jump to the chest you suggest for avoiding a scissors (and putting yourself even better in their range if you don't manage to stomp their chest).

id point out that the alternative you suggested of the low/ kneeling punch very much brings you in to range of hands and feet, only then you have far less mobility to dodge them

But I can control them from there. Again, it depends upon the situation. You want it to be an absolute, but it is not. Sometimes the kick is the better answer. Sometimes it is not. Any attempt to argue otherwise requires a counter to every single position and situation...and is fantasy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can agree, but I suppose if you continually train, you may be able to pull that off. What worries me most is the breakfalls being done. I mean if that is the best you can accomplish given the way you were thrown, so be it. But coming down on the toe of one foot, and on the elbow in another breakfall scares me. But as I said, he seems to make it work, so perhaps all people could with enough conditioning and practice.

It works quite well, but would break down pretty easily, too, under the chaos of real fighting. I've trained a few breakfalls that I would probably only ever use in the dojo, because they make things softer. In the street, they are too easily disrupted.