Freestyle Forms - what's up with that?

[tshadowchaser]

I have to ask Was the young lady that bad at the form she attempted or was it that the form just was not as good of a form as some of the others?
Some forms just should not be done in compitition because they are good for training a move or foot set but do not have the power, or Fighting application that makes them look good in competition.
If this young landy had done a more traditional type of form would she have had the talent to score any better than she did?

 

[ThirdDegreeBurn]

My opinion is going to differ from a lot of people here, I think, but I feel that it's unfair to put Open-Style Contact fights into the same category as "Freestyle Forms." A "freestyle" form, to me (and to a lot of others) prove absolutely nothing except that these people *might* know how to move a weapon.
However, my definition of "Freestyle" seems to be more of a point-based contact tournament (points are awarded through a submission, or one competitor having obviously gotten the better of the other, or a tap out.) Something like that proves you can defend yourself (fight), and feels good whether you win or lose (at least for me, even if I lose I can see where I need to get better.)
"Freestyle" Forms, though, do not deserve to be called forms, they are routines, just gymnasitcs with movements that resemble martial arts.

 

[Marginal]

In a lot of ways calling that martial arts would be exactly the same as calling the swordfight sequence in The Nutcracker a form. They're moving in a prescribed pattern, and doing vaguely martial things, so it's a martial arts exhibition!

 

[Jimmy"TheBear"]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I have to ask Was the young lady that bad at the form she attempted or was it that the form just was not as good of a form as some of the others?

First of all, I had a hard time seeing what a one handed cartwheel had to do with martial arts.

Second , had she attempted the form without most of the acrobatics, even a non-traditional form, would have looked alot cleaner, and sharper. I am from a different system, therefore could not judge her traditionalism. All I was looking for was intensity, cleanliness of techniques, realism (to certain degree), and focus. She wasn't doing bad up until the acrobatics. Then that blew it. They were poorly executed, not only by her, but her team mates.
In other words it was a terrible form. I didn't see anyone make it look good.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Some forms just should not be done in compitition because they are good for training a move or foot set but do not have the power, or Fighting application that makes them look good in competition.

Agreed here. We have "tournament" (traditional to most systems) forms. Our traditional forms are in house forms for practice & teaching.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

If this young landy had done a more traditional type of form would she have had the talent to score any better than she did?

Definatley. Her build was not condusive to one handed cartwheels, and other nonsense. She would have done well to stick to grounded form or remove the non-sense from the form she performed.

:asian:

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by CanuckMA
I can't wait for the 'Synchronized Forms' events.

I actually enjoy watching some of these...the people have to have breathing right and have to be aware of what the person off to either side or behind or diagonally is doing, getting ready to, and has done. the breathing and the mental timing is crucial...reminds me of watching the Marine group with the rifles...takes extreme determination to filter out everything else around.

 

[Bigodinho]

And then their is capoeira...

I've been training capoeira for the last five years. Unfortunately, I'm not as knowlegable in other martial art forms so I'm not familiar with what you call forms. Capoeria has its basic movements, the ginga (the basic movement/stance), kicks and evasive manuevers (there are no blocks in capoeira) which are taught to all students. From there, as you grow in the art, the fluid movements allow you to develop your own style. That is to say, everyone moves in different ways. I don't walk exactly like the next person, but we all take the basic steps. It's the same in capoeira, from the basic movements and drills, you develop your own style of moving, as long as you don't forget the basics. So in that sense, it is a freestyle form, but there is structure behind every movement.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I fail to see how backflip, somersaults, cartwheels, handstands, and gymnastics adds to what forms are supposed to accomplish:

1. Teach techniques for your level
2. Improve gracefulness, fluidity, and soft/strong combinations
3. Demonstrate self defense
4. Build up your body

In my opinion, open style forms are nothing more than flashy demonstrations of showmanship. They remind me of fast food-really tasty, but devoid of any nutritive substance and in the long run really bad for you.
Besides, assuming that an open form was created by the competitor or his instructor specifically for the tournament, how is it going to have any substance since not much thought goes into it and it is designed simply to look fancy?

 

[Bigodinho]

I fail to see how backflip, somersaults, cartwheels, handstands, and gymnastics adds to what forms are supposed to accomplish:

1. Teach techniques for your level
2. Improve gracefulness, fluidity, and soft/strong combinations
3. Demonstrate self defense
4. Build up your body

In my opinion, open style forms are nothing more than flashy demonstrations of showmanship. They remind me of fast food-really tasty, but devoid of any nutritive substance and in the long run really bad for you.
Besides, assuming that an open form was created by the competitor or his instructor specifically for the tournament, how is it going to have any substance since not much thought goes into it and it is designed simply to look fancy?

Everything that you mentioned... it's all accomplished in capoeira.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Fine. If a tournament bills itself as a capoera tournament, then I expect to see that. However, if a tournament bills itself as "Open to all Korean, Japanese, Okinawan, Chinese, and _______" and competitors are using gymnastics as part of forms routines and making things up, I have a problem with that. I know of no Korean form that uses those.

 

[TigerWoman]

Our tournaments are largely open ones. Its difficult to judge someone who does near perfect black belt form such as Koryo against one who has made up his form, added tumbling and only the kicks that he is best at but also very good and very flashy. We were told to yell at every strike at tournaments. Well that was a complete redo, if you are taught to just yell at certain kicks throughout your training. But that was because our organization seemed to be losing alot to competitors who screamed their brains out. Maybe that or too many judges from the other schools. It just seems that tournaments has gotten to be about one-upmanship. It order to win, you have to have a "card" or two and that is tumbling and screaming.

We don't do tumbling but it could possibly head that way. I know other large organizations that are doing it and requiring students-all students- to tumble. Not great for us older ones. But there are few of us competing. I, as a 50 plus woman, would have to go up against a 40 something man who could tumble and also wow them with a new routine, and I would lose, never mind the good stances and high kicks. TW

 

[WLMantisKid]

Open forms competitions are for show... not for self defense.

If you want to see someones skill at self defense, watch the San Shou competitions - not the open forms competitions. Use some common sense people. They have traditional form competitions, open form competitions, san shou competitions, etc. etc. and so on.

San Shou isn't for showing how flashy you are, and forms competitions arent for showing how good at fighting on the street you are. You can call those people who do huge backflips in forms and such bad martial artists, but I can guarantee you with the muscle control and power it takes to do that, they could break something in you if they hit you.

 

[Andrew Green]

Guys, whats the problem with it?

Can any of you that are complaining about it actually do those things? Somehow I doubt it...

It is martial arts, Martial Arts means lots of different things, not just "The way you do it"

As unrealistic as you think there forms are there are those that think any forms are unrealisitc.

Sport Karate is a performance art, no one that does it will deny that.

It takes an unbelievable amount of dedication, hard work, and athletic development to excel at it. Are those not things worth pursueing? Not to mention the self-confidance that comes from achieving each of those tricks.

Say what you want about Sport karate practictioners, but they are tremendous athletes who have worked very hard to be able to do what they do.

It's not for everyone, but neither are running traditional kata and throwing countless reps of reverse punches.

I train MMA, I can't do much for acrobatics, it's not my interest. I do know that I can pull off some basic stuff in a rather sloppy way, and I know how hard it is. It is impressive, it's just not what you do.

Realism isn't everything for everyone.

 

[Marginal]

Guys, whats the problem with it?

Can any of you that are complaining about it actually do those things? Somehow I doubt it...

What? Bellow? A backflip? Those aren't that hard to pull off.

It is martial arts, Martial Arts means lots of different things, not just "The way you do it"

So a quilting bee could also qualify as a martial arts exhibition?

It takes an unbelievable amount of dedication, hard work, and athletic development to excel at it. Are those not things worth pursueing? Not to mention the self-confidance that comes from achieving each of those tricks.

You're better off signing your kid up for gymnastics at that point. At least you won't be planting the delusion that that bellowing backflip will ever come in handy should they be attacked by someone that way.

 

[Andrew Green]

You're better off signing your kid up for gymnastics at that point. At least you won't be planting the delusion that that bellowing backflip will ever come in handy should they be attacked by someone that way.

No one that does that sort of thing that I have come across would.

It's performance, they know it, you know it, what's the problem?

Why does other people doing what they enjoy bother you?

 

[Marginal]

When they ride an elephant and try to call it a flamingo, yes. You can name the elephant Flamingo, but it still ain't gonna fly.

 

[The Kai]

It seems there are enough misconseptions when it comes to the martial arts due to movies (with wire work) and video games. Why perpetuate ignorance? If a screaming backflip has no martial application why do it. To impress the audience?

 

[Bigodinho]

One of my favorite capoeiristas once said, "flipping is nice, it's beautiful to watch, but if you play capoeira with me and you do a back flip, you better stick to the ceiling, because when you come down, you're going to kicked in the face." The funny thing is, he is the most outstanding gymnast I've ever seen... and he's never taken a gymnastics course in his life. All self taught. Granted, I have seen outstanding capoeiristas actually use flips to avoid take downs, but those are the few that recognize the practical application of a flip as opposed to flipping for show, which I will admit most younger capoeiristas nowadays do. My Master has been training capoeira for about 40 years now. In his hayday he could flip with the best of them. He's now over 50, he doesn't flip anymore, and yet his capoeira is more beautiful than any I've seen. His capoeira focuses on the fundamentals, and that's how he teaches it. I've seen him go against some of the best flippers I've seen, and he'll let them do their thing, and then all of a sudden, their on the ground without ever realizing what happened.

 

[Flatlander]

I think that the non-combative aspects of the free form expression are, simply, artistic movement. But there's a little more to it, as well. There are martial applications to some of the things they do but more importantly, being able to do those types of things enhances thier abilities in all ways of movement. With the added body awareness, strength, flexibility, and focus they are better able to execute movements of a combative nature.

For example, take the cartwheel. You may ask "What is the combative application of a backward, one handed cartwheel?" Picking up a knife that you've disarmed off the ground quickly, and returning to a ready position. I have practiced this maneuver, and gotten fairly good at it. Likely to use it? No. Could I use it if you never practiced it? No.

How about the jumping way up in the air to break a board with each foot located above your head. A common combative application? No. Does the ability to do this enhance your kicking skills? Yes. Of course.

There comes a point in time where one becomes trained well enough that they are able to execute combative movement well. They have grasped the body awareness to put their striking weapons where they want them, when they want them there. They have worked all ranges of combat. What's left to do? Improve. Should they choose to find a way to compete in their abilities to get flashy? Why not? Why should it matter to someone who choosees not to do it? I think it has more to do with the critic, and less to do with the free formist.

 

[Lisa]

It seems there are enough misconseptions when it comes to the martial arts due to movies (with wire work) and video games. Why perpetuate ignorance? If a screaming backflip has no martial application why do it. To impress the audience?

Yes, that is why it is done... to impress the audience.

They are out there doing their "thing" for the ooohs and Ahhhs and to get the highest score possible and that is all.

I agree about the misconception of martial arts due to movies etc and ignorance is perpetuated because it looks pretty and that is what people want. Take for instance a UFC or Pride fight. I enjoy them immensely cause I know what is going on. I see the technique behind the fight. Friends of mine who have been kind enough to humor me and watch the fights with me only see grown men rolling around on the ground. Unless something spectacular happens they all find it somewhat "boring".

 

[Han-Mi]

pretty much a floor routine. all flash no substance as far as martial arts. Very Entertaining.