What has karate become?

[The Kai]

I'm sorry if I can across a little aggressive. The cardio for gymnastics is very different from the short, intense burst for a street fight was my point

 

[chinto01]

Gentlemen please this was not a thread started to see who's foot is bigger than someone elses. Does it really matter if you have been in a fight or not? It that what proves how effective your training is?

 

[dubljay]

I'm sorry if I can across a little aggressive. The cardio for gymnastics is very different from the short, intense burst for a street fight was my point

No harm, I just didn't want this thread to become bogged down in a flame war. I understand that fighting isnt the same as distance running, very different forms of endurance. However, you mean to say that a tumbling/acrobat routine does not fall under the same 'intense burst' as a street fight? Each flip, twist, spinning jump kick is equal to the same effort of a strike in street fight wouldn't you agreee? While the gymnastics is a bit more or less vertical and the street fight is more horizontal the endurance to push in either direction should be the same. The real question is wheather these atheletes are ready mentally for a fight, things change when you get your teeth ratteled from a nice stiff jab.

Just my point of view though

-Josh

 

[dsp921]

Well, in that case all of us fail the test.

If you want martial arts you have to join the army. No war has ever been fought unarmed and one on one.

Plus, I think all the actors, painter, musicians, poets, etc. will be surprised to find out that if they wanted to be artists they should have taken up a trade.

Good use of a dictionary though...

None of this is true. Maybe you should pick up a dictionary before commenting.

 

[MJS]

Hello my friends. Last evening while sitting at home I tuned in to ESPN actually I ran across it and they were airing a taped tournament from last year. Think it was a Paul Mitchell Tournament in Florida. Anyways while watching this with my wife I began to wonder about what is going to happen to the martial arts in the future. Let me explain. When I was coming up throught the ranks and going to tournaments we did traditional forms and sparring was done with only an athletic supporter and groin contact was legal. There was a sense of honor at these events and the arrogance that you see today was bareley seen if at all. People did not kiai a million times and do back flips in their forms and their weapons forms were exactly that weapons forms not an acrobatic display. You were judged on your form and the correct breathing, stances, kiai etc not on how flashy you were or the name on the back of your top. Where am I going with this? Well last evening while watching this program I felt I was watching more of a gymnastics routine than a "karate" kata. Granted the competitors today are great athletes probably better than I was at their age but I wonder what is going to happen in the future. There was not one traditional form shown on this program and the commentators sounded like they were talking about a gymnastics meet rather than a "karate" form. So with all of that being said I begin to wonder if the traditional martial arts are dying a slow death? Are we becomming a dying breed to the flashier more acrobatic forms? My own son looked at me last evening and asked why we do not do that form at the dojo. My response to him was " that is not karate son, it is acrobatics." Point being is that the future students who see this display on t.v. will expect that most schools are like this. I don't know maybe I enjoy the traditional end of things to much. But in my opinion that is what it is all about. Tradition! Not who has the flashier kata but who has the most effective form. What do you guys think???

In the spirit of Bushido!

Rob

I agree with you here. IMO, I'd rather see some quality sparring, kata and weapon displays rather than the flash. Then again, what are the people who are watching this going to want to see?? Few if any are probably going to want to see the tradition and instead opt to see the flash. This would probably explain the reason for separate divisions at tournaments. If I wanted to learn cartwheels, splits and all of the other flashy things you see, I'd join a gymnastics class.

Mike

 

[Shu2jack]

I have to disagree that "Martial Arts" and the XMA is the same thing. At least to the ATA, XMA is promoted as a "performance art". The goal is to dazzel, amaze, look cool, be exciting, etc. The goal is to learn how to execute techniques, perform combinations, ki-hap, etc. in order make it "look good". It has little to do with actually learning how to execute techniques in a way that could be used for self-defense.

I agree with Mr. Green that many traditional martial artists can not defend themselves. They do practice what they practice for the purpose of perfecting tools to use to defend themselves. Wheather they do a good job of that depends on the instructor. It is an art, but the the methods used are used to help students have tools they can use in a fight.

It could be argued that part of the martial arts is self-expression and "XMA" is allowing people to do that. The fact that XMA is concerned with artistic performance over applicable fighting techinque and that a lot of XMA "self-expression" would get people hurt, I can't call XMA a martial art. It is a arcobatic performance art.

 

[arnisador]

I can't watch karate on ESPN anymore. But, it's a natural evolution of a sport, I suppose. Look at football pics and rules from decades back!

 

[chinto01]

In previous posts both on this thread and others people refer to karate as a "sport". What is your opinions on this? Is it a sport or a way of life? Just curious.

 

[The Kai]

No harm, I just didn't want this thread to become bogged down in a flame war. I understand that fighting isnt the same as distance running, very different forms of endurance. However, you mean to say that a tumbling/acrobat routine does not fall under the same 'intense burst' as a street fight? Each flip, twist, spinning jump kick is equal to the same effort of a strike in street fight wouldn't you agreee? While the gymnastics is a bit more or less vertical and the street fight is more horizontal the endurance to push in either direction should be the same. The real question is wheather these atheletes are ready mentally for a fight, things change when you get your teeth ratteled from a nice stiff jab.

Just my point of view though

-Josh

The aerobic requirements are more intense in a street fight. You are not in control of the routine, cannot breath correctly, hugh adreline dump and you are getting hit (which may disrupt your breathing) also in a grappling situation your mouth may be obstructed (ever try breathing thru another guys shoulder??)

 

[Grenadier]

Traditional martial arts will always have their traditional tournaments.

Fluff 'n Buff martial arts will always have their own tournaments.

The question is, which one gets more camera action?

 

[DavidCC]

My 5 year old daughter has been practicing Kempo for about 6 months and loves it as much as I do.

We watched the forms competition and she got the essence of it right away "I want to do a dance like that" and she got up and proceeded to do so, screams and all. OK, it's a dance, dance away, sweetheart. We do't teach them any forms in the pee-wee class...

So then the breaking was on, and at first she wasn't that interested but then when they showed, briefly, the women's breaking, she was mesmerized. I had to explain that her little hands were still too soft and that she should not start trying to break stuff!!! (I'm not sure if I was more concerned with her hurting her hands or with her breaking stuff in the house!!) I promised her that when she was old enough she would be allowed to break stuff :ultracool

 

[chinto01]

Traditional martial arts will always have their traditional tournaments.

Fluff 'n Buff martial arts will always have their own tournaments.

The question is, which one gets more camera action?

I think we all unfortunately know the answer to this.

 

[VSanhodo]

HI Folks


Chinto,
I tend to agree with you. I began my training back in 1969, I was 9 years old. The gentleman whom I began training with was a former memeber of the Japanese Royal Marine Commandos during WW-2. If you look at the time period WW-2 was over, the korean war hadnt really been over that long and we were into the Vietnam war then. I trained for 5 years usually 4 - 5 times a week and usually they were not timed classes but tended to be approx 3 hours sessions. It wasnt until I had trained 5 full years that I went to a tournament and actually saw ppl wearing uniforms and belts, that I asked Mr. Tanaka what belt I was. He answer was classic, He simply said I dont know, what color belt you wanna be?? Just prior to me joining the Navy He and I went to a local tournament in 1977, even then the Flash had begun. He watched and said, this no Karate, this not even good basics. I too recall tournaments where you only wore a mouth piece, a cup and perhaps white knuckle protectors. Injuries were far less common then they are today. You rarely saw someone with a cocky or arrogant attitude back then. Today it is common place.
I remember when ppl were judged not only on correct stances, proper execution of punches, kicks and breathing but also Focus, Ettitque and Attitude. Seems today if you can do a jump spin Ninja Ranger 360 helicopter whirly bird combo punch kick and yell a lot then youve won. If I had to put a number on it, I would say 98.9% of the so called black belts, Masters, Grand Master, Soke etc that we encounter today are not Martial Artist rather they are BS artist.
I read an article not long ago about Kata, The man who wrote it and I am paraphrasing said kata of old have no value in a modern society. My opinion of this is simple, ANYONE who says kata makes no sense and has no value has never seen or been taught good kata.
I think I will stick to the classics. True there are fewer and fewer of us but the classics will never die.

I also want to thak you for sticking to your traditional beliefs. Im glad Im not the only one.
Take care

San

 

[DeLamar.J]

I also hate the acrobatic crap I see, that is not martial arts. and they should not call themselves such. I think at every acrobatic martial arts convention, there should be a ring they should fight in to prove how there acrobatics work in a fight. They would be made fools out of.