Fighting a boxer in Wing Chun

[LFJ]

So you don't do chi sao, forms or anything of that sort?

All train various aspects of the punch and delivery strategy.

Or you think that it is equal to doing a punch over and over again?

We do this too plus more training to develop the punch. It's not less time on the punch by playing sticky hand games or forms that have nothing to do with punching.

And boxers are dangerous, I did not say unbeatable. In the end it is about the fighters, but if you don't see their strengths you are bound to lose to it.

Punching is VT's strength too. Just a different type. Countless hours are invested in it in VT as well.

 

[Phobius]

Hard sparring/ fighting outside of VT is essential too. But there's rarely a friend with a camera on standby when chance encounters go down to capture reality for you.

Chance encounters called sparring? KPM was saying it is strange that noone organizes sparring with other schools from your lineage and films it. I would say given the amount of crap on YouTube that would mean nothing.

I just had one with a JKD guy at a gym today, easily two inches taller than me (and I'm already 6'2") also strong and fast as hell.

I can tell you what worked for me and quite well was simply mobility and VT punching tactics. If I tried to attach to his arms or half the nonsense most WC theorizes with I would have lost my head because he was throwing serious bombs.

If you tried he would destroy you. You don't ever chase a trap and if you expect to keep one for more than an instant you are either not sparring or he is trying to grab you and not punch.

But if you do not make contact with him with any part of your body you were boxing. Which is cool, boxing is part of WC but it is not the only part.

 

[LFJ]

Chance encounters called sparring?

You never ran into someone who asked you to go a round after knowing you're a MAist?

KPM was saying it is strange that noone organizes sparring with other schools from your lineage and films it.

But they do and it's been posted before. One VT school even hosts this annual open style tournament. What are you guys doing in the meantime?

But if you do not make contact with him with any part of your body you were boxing. Which is cool, boxing is part of WC but it is not the only part.

What part of my body should contact him for it to be complete WC then and why shouldn't I just punch him if that gets the job done?

 

[Phobius]

You never ran into someone who asked you to go a round after knowing you're a MAist?

Would be funny if it did but nope, might be my size or just bad luck. Don't know.

But they do and it's been posted before. One VT school even hosts this annual open style tournament. What are you guys doing in the meantime?

I did not say anything, you were the one talking about chance encounters. Tournament is not chance encounter, it is planned event.

What part of my body should contact him for it to be complete WC then and why shouldn't I just punch him if that gets the job done?

Complete WC, same as true WC I despise those terms. I just said there is more to it than boxing. You said stuff about trapping not working. Not me. I was not at that fight, I was just agreeing that if you chased a trapping then yes he would beat you. Besides you are not skilled or trained in such am area by your own account.

About body contact, it is not always there in a fight except a landed punch. But sometimes they are. So did you go the entire fight with no body contact besides your fist?

 

[LFJ]

I did not say anything, you were the one talking about chance encounters. Tournament is not chance encounter, it is planned event.

You were just talking about no one in my lineage organizing sparring. A tournament is organized sparring.

About body contact, it is not always there in a fight except a landed punch. But sometimes they are. So did you go the entire fight with no body contact besides your fist?

Foot stop to kick, palm to face, punch punch punch.

From within a fight it's more difficult to see clearly what all is happening than as a bystander sees it, but he tried some JKD hand stuff when he entered. I don't know. I just used VT punching tactics to cut through it all. So forearms touched but only for a split second as I hit target. No time for sensing limbs and doing something clever with it.

 

[marques]

One video among many of Master Wong!

 

[guy b.]

I don't know how much other stuff you're focussing on in your WC, but in my lineage countless hours are invested in the development of our punches. It's just that our punching methods have more tactical ideas to them that need to be trained in different ways to develop properly.

That's why hard sparring and fighting is essential. It shows you what works and what doesn't and the truth is not much does beyond balance, distancing, timing, reflexes and a few simple tactical ideas. Most chi-sau theories, sticking to arms and sensitivity stuff flies out the window. Boxers, and anyone else who fights, know this.

I agree. The punch is 90% of VT. It is a punching style.

 

[Flying Crane]

How so?

Your broad generalizations. That's where you get into trouble.

 

[KPM]

But they do and it's been posted before. One VT school even hosts this annual open style tournament. What are you guys doing in the meantime?

?

This is San Da. This is the sparring you are referring to that you used to find the errors in your fighting and use your Ving Tsun to fix? This is your Ving Tsun?

 

[KPM]

Your broad generalizations. That's where you get into trouble.

What broad generalizations?

 

[LFJ]

This is San Da. This is the sparring you are referring to that you used to find the errors in your fighting and use your Ving Tsun to fix? This is your Ving Tsun?

Did you not read I said it is an open style tournament? That means various styles compete. Or are you just trying to be funny? Why don't you train for it and register for the next one?

 

[Flying Crane]

What broad generalizations?

Go back and re-read the thread. It's in there.

 

[KPM]

Did you not read I said it is an open style tournament? That means various styles compete.

Then why did you offer this link when asked why we don't see footage of WSLVT people doing all of their sparring and testing when you say it is so important to the system? How is an "open style tournament" an answer to that question?

 

[KPM]

Go back and re-read the thread. It's in there.

Sorry. I don't remember being in trouble on this thread. Sounds to me like you aren't sure yourself.

 

[Phobius]

You were just talking about no one in my lineage organizing sparring. A tournament is organized sparring.

Huh? Reread what I wrote. I said KPM talked about lack of sparring videos for a lineage based on sparring. Against "outsiders". And I asked what chance encounters had to do with his question. Plus stating that YouTube is crap for sparring videos as to explain that I see no meaning in you not being able to provide sparring videos.

But I do find it a shame because I am at the point where I would love to assess your style, but without proper video and/or someone to meet firsthand there is no way I will be able to.

Another time perhaps...

From within a fight it's more difficult to see clearly what all is happening than as a bystander sees it, but he tried some JKD hand stuff when he entered. I don't know. I just used VT punching tactics to cut through it all. So forearms touched but only for a split second as I hit target. No time for sensing limbs and doing something clever with it.

And that is how fights go. Sometimes there is no body contact. It depends on the fight and the fighters. Besides you need to end up in a bad state while punching in the first place is my belief or at least what I have noticed until now. While the fight goes your way while punching, I would be suprised if any 'sensing limbs' would come to play, does not mean it is not there just that it senses nothing.


Now you say you focus 90% on punching, I was just saying of that 90% how much is actually spent doing the punch itself. Not meaning building technique, sense or elbow structure in order to punch but actually punch while doing all of the above. This is what I mean a boxer does for a large majority of their training, if you do it to... great. Many people just go to class, do their training and then go home and workout or do other stuff. We should never forget to spend a lot of time just doing those punches. And in my case even variations of them...

Footwork is everything but sooner or later we are bound to get hit, better make sure we are better at hitting than them to.

 

[JPinAZ]

Simultaneous offence and Defence in boxing is achieved by moving to a position where they are not punching. And then punching them.

My mistake, I should be more careful with how I word things I guess. make that "simultaneous offense/defense in BOTH HANDS"

 

[drop bear]

This is San Da. This is the sparring you are referring to that you used to find the errors in your fighting and use your Ving Tsun to fix? This is your Ving Tsun?

I don't mind that. It combines the principals of the chun with the practicalitys of actual fighting.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry. I don't remember being in trouble on this thread. Sounds to me like you aren't sure yourself.

?
...ok then...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I tried to attach to his arms or half the nonsense most WC theorizes with I would have lost my head because he was throwing serious bombs.

The major difference between the CMA and boxing is CMA uses "bridge" strategy and boxing does not. It's fair to say that without the "bridge" strategy, there is no CMA.

There are only 3 hand skills that exist in all MA systems on this planet:

1. block with one arm and punch with another arm at the same time.
2. switch hands - you punch, your opponent block, you use the other hand to re-block his blocking arm, free your attacking arm, and attack again.
3. block and punch back by using the same arm.
4. dodge and punch back (no bridge strategy here).

CMA uses all 4 strategies. Boxing mainly use strategy 4.

What I don't understand is If

- you arm contact on your opponent's arm,
- sense his intention,
- borrow his force,
- redirect his arm away from your attacking path,
- use his leading arm to jam his back arm,
- move in, and
- attack him,

how can his arms be able to hit on your head?

For example,

- your opponent's arms are on guard in front of his face,
- you right punch at his face,
- he uses his right arm to block your punch toward your right (bridge is established),
- you sense his blocking force (toward your right),
- you borrow his force, use your left hand to help his right arm to move further to your right (his blocking arm is out of your attacking path),
- since you have redirect your opponent's right arm to jam his own left arm, you can enter and attack him through his "right side door" with your right fist again. None of his arms can stop your right punch at his face.

There is a purpose to

- build a bridge,
- use your opponent's contact arm to jam his other arm,
- cross that bridge, and
- attack.

If you train this strategy over 10,000 times, you will have advantage over your opponent if all he knows is to throw one punch after another. This is the beauty of the "bridge" strategy, and this is the beauty of the CMA.

 

[guy b.]

What I don't understand is If

- you arm contact on your opponent's arm,
- sense his intention,
- borrow his force,
- redirect his arm away from your attacking path,
- use his leading arm to jam his back arm,
- move in, and
- attack him,

how can his arms be able to hit on your head?

For example,

- your opponent's arms are on guard in front of his face,
- you right punch at his face,
- he uses his right arm to block your punch toward your right (bridge is established),
- you sense his blocking force (toward your right),
- you borrow his force, use your left hand to help his right arm to move further to your right (his blocking arm is out of your attacking path),
- since you have redirect your opponent's right arm to jam his own left arm, you can enter and attack him through his "right side door" with your right fist again. None of his arms can stop your right punch at his face.

Sounds very unrealistic.

There is a purpose to

- build a bridge,
- use your opponent's contact arm to jam his other arm,
- cross that bridge, and
- attack.

This is not the understanding of "bridge" in the VT system.