Fighting a boxer in Wing Chun

[Flying Crane]

Yea that's what i meant lol. Wing Chun emphasizes (or at least should) a balance between arms and legs for attack/defense. If you sacrifice balance over power, you can leave a huge weak point that your opponent can exploit. That's why humility is so important in Wing Chun because your better equipped in seeing your opponent's strengths and weaknesses.

Do you have a background in wing chun and/or boxing? If so, would you describe the training you have received? I'm just not finding your comments credible, and I wonder where your knowledge comes from.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's fair to say that

- boxing has more powerful punch,
- WC has faster linear punch combo, and better center line strategy.

IMO, it makes no sense for WC tries to compete in the area of "power generation" against boxing.

A 50 lb force land on the nose can break that nose as good as a 100 lb force. Sometime, speed is more important than power.

 

[Phobius]

It's fair to say that

- boxing has more powerful punch,
- WC has faster linear punch combo, and better center line strategy.

IMO, it makes no sense for WC tries to compete in the area of "power generation" against boxing.

A 50 lb force land on the nose can break that nose as good as a 100 lb force. Sometime, speed is more important than power.

Boxers need more powerful punch, their gloves protect their hand and wrist against any self inflicted damage from punching. A WC practitioner need to graduately increase toughness in his fists, with time and practise his fist grows tougher and his punches harder.

So there is a good reason why boxers hit like trains, and WCs have not focused as much on it in my view. Both can punch hard enough for the purpose. Problem I see with boxers are that they have less things to focus on, the amount of time they repeat a punch and train it. It beats any amount of time a WC practitioner spends practising punching. This is my concern if fighting a boxer, the amount of time he spent perfecting his movements.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Assume your power is generated from

- bottom and up,
- back and forward.

When a boxer throws his

- left jab, his left hand, left shoulder, and right shoulder are in a straight line.
- right cross, his right hand, right shoulder, and left shoulder will be in a straight line.

To move from one straight line into another straight line, it will give you the maximum body rotation. That can give you the maximum punching power.

The concern is if WC tries to punch the same way as boxing does, WC will not be WC any more.

 

[Phobius]

Assume your power is generated from

- bottom and up,
- back and forward.

When a boxer throws his

- left jab, his left hand, left shoulder, and right shoulder are in a straight line.
- right cross, his right hand, right shoulder, and left shoulder will be in a straight line.

To move from one straight line into another straight line, it will give you the maximum body rotation. That can give you the maximum punching power.

The concern is if WC tries to punch the same way as boxing does, WC will not be WC any more.

WC will always be WC, my view is that we are not our system. We train our systems to be fighters. If you need a tool don't limit yourself if your system is limited.

For me I train grappling because they are better at what they do than WC, I look at boxing techniques because quite frankly they know how to utilize length of arms to their advantage, and so on. Just make sure you are clear in understanding the different systems then I see no harm in you learning more than one system. Just keep the system itself to what it is.

That is probably one reason why there are fighters and teachers and they are usually not the same.

 

[KPM]

No, they are simply two different methodologies, both with good proponents, both with poor proponents, both with advantages and disadvantages. It's not possible to make a generalization like that. It makes for a very poor discussion because the initial premise is extremely flawed.

Sorry, but that's BS. There is a distinct biomechanic involved in western boxing and a distinct biomechanic involved in Wing Chun. Sure there are some deviations, but one can certainly generalize and refer to how the majority move in a discussion. If you can't see that, and therefore can't follow the discussion, then that isn't our problem.

 

[Tames D]

Do you have a background in wing chun and/or boxing? If so, would you describe the training you have received? I'm just not finding your comments credible, and I wonder where your knowledge comes from.

FC, Have you had any training in Boxing and WC? Just curious.

 

[Isaiah90]

It's also because boxers attack from many different angles with uppercuts, haymakers, etc. which makes it hard for the Wing Chun practitioner to keep up his or her defenses. Boxers spend a great amount of time perfecting their punches in power, speed, mobility, etc. more than a Wing Chun practitioner. That's why i don't advise engaging in hand-to-hand combat against an experienced boxer because you will get K.O'ed.

 

[Flying Crane]

FC, Have you had any training in Boxing and WC? Just curious.

Wing chun for 3 or 4 years. I don't train it anymore, this was around 15 years ago.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry, but that's BS. There is a distinct biomechanic involved in western boxing and a distinct biomechanic involved in Wing Chun. Sure there are some deviations, but one can certainly generalize and refer to how the majority move in a discussion. If you can't see that, and therefore can't follow the discussion, then that isn't our problem.

The first part of what you say here, regarding the biomechanics, I agree with. But your conclusions are erroneous.

 

[KPM]

The first part of what you say here, regarding the biomechanics, I agree with. But your conclusions are erroneous.

How so?

 

[drop bear]

Just go fight a crap ton of boxers. Then when you start beating them.

Do that thing.

 

[JPinAZ]

Assume your power is generated from

- bottom and up,
- back and forward.

When a boxer throws his

- left jab, his left hand, left shoulder, and right shoulder are in a straight line.
- right cross, his right hand, right shoulder, and left shoulder will be in a straight line.

To move from one straight line into another straight line, it will give you the maximum body rotation. That can give you the maximum punching power.

Yes, but the boxer gives up equal reach of hands to do so, which takes up more time, as well as losing what WC considers simultaneous offense/defense. advantages and disadvantages in everything...

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but the boxer gives up equal reach of hands to do so, which takes up more time, as well as losing what WC considers simultaneous offense/defense. advantages and disadvantages in everything...

Simultaneous offence and Defence in boxing is achieved by moving to a position where they are not punching. And then punching them.


Technically you really should be doing that regardless of what style you do as walking straight into a guy pretty much equals a beating.

 

[wckf92]

Simultaneous offence and Defence in boxing is achieved by moving to a position where they are not punching. And then punching them.

Yep. I think it's called 'counter-punching'? Timing and position backed by footwork is the name of the game!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes, but the boxer gives up equal reach of hands to do so, which takes up more time, as well as losing what WC considers simultaneous offense/defense. advantages and disadvantages in everything...

That's also the main trade off between the southern CMA and northern CMA. I had once tried to integrate WC and long fist together. It just didn't work at all. This is why it makes no sense to compare whether the trade off is good or bad. In battle field, both machine gun and grenade are all needed.

 

[LFJ]

Problem I see with boxers are that they have less things to focus on, the amount of time they repeat a punch and train it. It beats any amount of time a WC practitioner spends practising punching. This is my concern if fighting a boxer, the amount of time he spent perfecting his movements.

I don't know how much other stuff you're focussing on in your WC, but in my lineage countless hours are invested in the development of our punches. It's just that our punching methods have more tactical ideas to them that need to be trained in different ways to develop properly.

That's why hard sparring and fighting is essential. It shows you what works and what doesn't and the truth is not much does beyond balance, distancing, timing, reflexes and a few simple tactical ideas. Most chi-sau theories, sticking to arms and sensitivity stuff flies out the window. Boxers, and anyone else who fights, know this.

 

[KPM]

That's why hard sparring and fighting is essential. It shows you what works and what doesn't and the truth is not much does beyond balance, distancing, timing, reflexes and a few simple tactical ideas. Most chi-sau theories, sticking to arms and sensitivity stuff flies out the window. Boxers, and anyone else who fights, know this.

How about all the forms? How about all the intricate moves on the dummy? I've pointed out before, that the way you and Guy describe WSLVT seems to me to indicate that you have quite a bit of "extra" material in your curriculum. You don't need the variety of movement taught in the dummy form to do what you mention above. Especially when you see it so abstract and not as applications. And its interesting that if hard sparring is such an important aspect of WSLVT as you say, that we never see any video footage of it. All we see is the "chi sau theories, sticking to arms and sensitivity stuff."

 

[Phobius]

I don't know how much other stuff you're focussing on in your WC, but in my lineage countless hours are invested in the development of our punches. It's just that our punching methods have more tactical ideas to them that need to be trained in different ways to develop properly.

So you don't do chi sao, forms or anything of that sort? Or you think that it is equal to doing a punch over and over again?

And boxers are dangerous, I did not say unbeatable. In the end it is about the fighters, but if you don't see their strengths you are bound to lose to it.

 

[LFJ]

How about all the forms? How about all the intricate moves on the dummy?

Still mostly training various aspects of the punch and punching strategy, developing it in all facets. Always the same "little idea". You call things extra because you don't know how we use them and why.

And its interesting that if hard sparring is such an important aspect of WSLVT as you say, that we never see any video footage of it. All we see is the "chi sau theories, sticking to arms and sensitivity stuff."

We don't have chi-sau theories, sticking to arms and sensitivity stuff... so I don't know what you're seeing.

Hard sparring/ fighting outside of VT is essential too. But there's rarely a friend with a camera on standby when chance encounters go down to capture reality for you.

I just had one with a JKD guy at a gym today, easily two inches taller than me (and I'm already 6'2") also strong and fast as hell.

I can tell you what worked for me and quite well was simply mobility and VT punching tactics. If I tried to attach to his arms or half the nonsense most WC theorizes with I would have lost my head because he was throwing serious bombs.