Evidence based training vs faith based training.

[Transk53]

No he didn't. He said knocking someone out in the gym is the same as knocking them out anywhere else.

See the above edit.

Bear, really? The percentages are completely different between the gym and street. The gym is a controlled environment.

 

[DaveB]

The attacks on the street will probably be less effective than the attack in the gym.

That is a lazy assumption. I have never seen anyone fight from a guard outside of a sporting or training environment. I've never seen that much space around two people fighting and I've never seen a first punch thrown where the recipient wasn't surprised by it even when there was clear arguing and aggression before hand.

I am sure these things I've not seen do occur but thinking of real violence like ring sport is potentially dangerous.

I spar everyone from trained guys to untrained guys and from any system I can lay my hands on. So that I get a real world evaluation of the sorts of attacks I may face.

Nobody has to pretend that they are a mugger or street fighter.

Recently we had a gymnast come in an roll. Untrained he could hold his own with trained jitsers due to his training in physicality. All of these dynamics are real world.

Asking someone to not really bear hug you so your defence works is not real world.

I for one totally agree that every skill you develop should be tested in sparring, not because if you can't make it work it should be abandoned, but because if you can't make it work you aren't doing it right and practicing in a live environment is the only way to learn what you need to make it work outside the dojo.

That being said if your focus is self defense then alive scenario training is just as valid a method and possibly more useful than sparring.

You seem to be suggesting that intent can only be experienced through sparring. I can only suggest that you find different people to drill with.

 

[Buka]

You know why I love this thread? Because I pretty much agree with everything everyone has said. I don't really how how that's possible, but as I read every single post I said, "yeah, okay, I know what you're saying."

 

[drop bear]

Bear, really? The percentages are completely different between the gym and street. The gym is a controlled environment.

Really? So your technique changes from the gym to the street.

Must make training awkward.

 

[drop bear]

I for one totally agree that every skill you develop should be tested in sparring, not because if you can't make it work it should be abandoned, but because if you can't make it work you aren't doing it right and practicing in a live environment is the only way to learn what you need to make it work outside the dojo.

That being said if your focus is self defense then alive scenario training is just as valid a method and possibly more useful than sparring.

You seem to be suggesting that intent can only be experienced through sparring. I can only suggest that you find different people to drill with.

Not really. This being attacked as you would on the street. As opposed to being attacked.

We do resisted drills. They consist of things like backing a person against a wall and trying to either take them down or fight them off. We are not pretending to be anywhere other than where we are and anyone other than who we are.

How does this attack them like it is the street make any sense other than to give the other guy more chance to defend?

 

[drop bear]

That is a lazy assumption. I have never seen anyone fight from a guard outside of a sporting or training environment. I've never seen that much space around two people fighting and I've never seen a first punch thrown where the recipient wasn't surprised by it even when there was clear arguing and aggression before hand.

I am sure these things I've not seen do occur but thinking of real violence like ring sport is potentially dangerous.

Do you put your hands up when you are fighting people?

Do you think this is an advantage or a disadvantage?

 

[drop bear]

I stand by my last sentence. You are choosing not to hear. I am done with this thread, because you choose not to see certain evidence - you need to be right. I can't fix that for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What evidence?

 

[FriedRice]

In my experiance it was easier to grapple, but I see what you mean. Obviously limited by local law and whatnot, a decent shot wins over a fancy move. Probably a good five out ten would submit with just a decent push anyway.

Based on the thousands of real street fight videos that we see over the recent 5-10 years due to YouTube, social media, iPhones, etc. and my collection of over 2000 such street fight videos (with only about 0.50% resulting in death)....IMO, most fights in the USA and Western Europe usually starts out with the throwing of punches, which is where good Boxing, would be the significant skill to have. And it's usually the guy who's getting beat up who, out of desperation, initiates the grappling. Which comes back to mainstream MMA training being the best for Self Defense, as punching someone in the face or grappling them into submission as you stated, works just the same in the street as it does in the cage.

 

[FriedRice]

You seem determined to keep saying MMA is "the way". Go ahead, have your way. I don't actually care enough to keep correcting your overstatements.

I accept your surrender.

 

[FriedRice]

So, I repeat. Do you assert that all likely attacks on the street are the same as what you'd get from a controlled, trained opponent? A few YouTube videos shows that to be untrue. We train to include those attacks I would not personally render, but which happen on the street. You are too clearly intelligent to not understand that, so I have to assume you're being purposefully belligerent.

I have over 2000 real fight videos, catagorized into specific types of fighting, with weapons, jumpings, mob attacks, trained vs. untrained, cops fighting, soldiers fighting, etc. I doubt you've been in 1/4 the number of street fights that I've been in and definitely zero, full contact competition fighting.

You say you trained all sorts of scenarios, but you only really train them with light tapping and pretend-fighting with choreographed scenarios.... and never really throwing your fist as hard as possible into your training partners' faces to send them into la-la land, in order to understand what is meant by "punching someone in the face really hard, solves most to all problems in a street fight".

I already know how you train because I've been there and done that for years. It's not bad and certainly better than nothing, but MMA fight training is just way, way superior in effectiveness.

 

[FriedRice]

Bear, really? The percentages are completely different between the gym and street. The gym is a controlled environment.

What's the difference between knocking someone out with a punch to the face in the gym vs. in the street?

And who's going to be better at knocking someone out....an experienced MMA fighter or an SD practitioner who only pretend-fight at tapping or light contact?

 

[FriedRice]

That is a lazy assumption. I have never seen anyone fight from a guard outside of a sporting or training environment. I've never seen that much space around two people fighting

Your personal experiences is way too limited and can't be taken seriously when taking into account the tens of thousands of real fight videos available online, with many more being uploaded daily, that contradicts your assertion. Here's one:

and I've never seen a first punch thrown where the recipient wasn't surprised by it even when there was clear arguing and aggression before hand.

I am sure these things I've not seen do occur but thinking of real violence like ring sport is potentially dangerous.

How is getting KO'ed by a Sports Fighter in the street not dangerous? As you lie there on the ground, unconscious from getting punched in the face, maybe just once even.....the Sports Fighter can either go home or stay and stomp on your head repeatedly until you skull cracks open, brain oozes out and you die....and he goes to jail for life for murder. How is this not real violence and who's going to be better at knocking someone out in the street or in the ring.....you, who trains Self Defense through choreographed, pretend-fighting with tapping to light, or even medium contact sparring....or Sports Fighters who trains from tapping to hard sparring for full KO's and fights in the ring for KO's? Who's going to be faster, stronger, more precise and more used to taking damage, etc.?

That being said if your focus is self defense then alive scenario training is just as valid a method and possibly more useful than sparring.

Probably the best way to prove this is for you to go to an MMA gym and ask to spar hard vs. one of their fighters. Ask to be paired up with someone of similar weight (say w/i 8 lbs) and similar number of years of training. You just need to bring some gloves, mouthguard, cup, shinguard and headgear. This way, you can find out how well you do, real fast.

 

[Hanzou]

That is a lazy assumption. I have never seen anyone fight from a guard outside of a sporting or training environment.

 

[FriedRice]

Notice at the 0:37 second mark, some were crying about how the BJJ wrecked his arm....and the guy said, "He F'ing bit him..." repeatedly. Many people thinks that biting will save you, but it's just wishful thinking as it doesn't hurt that much compared to getting your elbow popped. He should have done way worse and keep craning on that arm, considering that the other guy was raining punches, bit and slammed him....you don't get to tap after that. You def don't get to tap in Brazil or UFC 1-4 when Royce Gracie wouldn't let go due to TMA's biting and eye gouging him during their fights.

 

[DaveB]

Your personal experiences is way too limited and can't be taken seriously when taking into account the tens of thousands of real fight videos available online, with many more being uploaded daily, that contradicts your assertion. Here's one:



How is getting KO'ed by a Sports Fighter in the street not dangerous? As you lie there on the ground, unconscious from getting punched in the face, maybe just once even.....the Sports Fighter can either go home or stay and stomp on your head repeatedly until you skull cracks open, brain oozes out and you die....and he goes to jail for life for murder. How is this not real violence and who's going to be better at knocking someone out in the street or in the ring.....you, who trains Self Defense through choreographed, pretend-fighting with tapping to light, or even medium contact sparring....or Sports Fighters who trains from tapping to hard sparring for full KO's and fights in the ring for KO's? Who's going to be faster, stronger, more precise and more used to taking damage, etc.?

I have no idea how this paragraph is a response to what I said. I know you guys think non mma folk get annoyed because we deep down no were wrong etc. But really it is this nonsense. You are addressing someone who largely agrees with you, but the slightest variation away from your opinion and your making assumptions about my training, about my beliefs, and a simple idea like "making too many assumptions is bad", or there are variations on the idea of free fighting that can work as training", can't even begin to penetrate.

That is why people get annoyed and drop out. Learn how to discuss by considering what is being said, not just bludgeon with an opinion.

Probably the best way to prove this is for you to go to an MMA gym and ask to spar hard vs. one of their fighters. Ask to be paired up with someone of similar weight (say w/i 8 lbs) and similar number of years of training. You just need to bring some gloves, mouthguard, cup, shinguard and headgear. This way, you can find out how well you do, real fast.

You are arguing with someone else clearly, since I've told you nothing about my own training. That or you are conflating training and martial arts (see Dropbear).
And how would sparring trained fighters (which I do at every opportunity) test the effectiveness of scenario based training. The only thing sparring tests is your sparring skills.

I have already agreed that live fight training is the pinnacle of the skill building in a martial art, but for you a ring and gloves with a ref and predetermined start conditions is the only way. Fine, but for those who look at ma for self defense (which the first video isn't, not sure about the second), there are other things to consider and other ways to develop those skills.

And to clarify, I'm not a grappler, I meant a fighting guard, not bjj. And avoidable measuring contests between young men aren't generally considered self defense situations, they are consensual violence and so much the same as ring fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

And to clarify, I'm not a grappler, I meant a fighting guard, not bjj. And avoidable measuring contests between young men aren't generally considered self defense situations, they are consensual violence and so much the same as ring fighting.

You're making an assumption here because you have no idea if any of those confrontations were avoidable, and just because someone is fighting back doesn't mean that the violence is consensual.

Further, I would consider avoiding getting your face and head smashed in by someone on top of you to be a pretty good example of self defense. Getting punched from that position can lead to severe head injuries or even death, especially on very hard surfaces.

 

[drop bear]

You are arguing with someone else clearly, since I've told you nothing about my own training. That or you are conflating training and martial arts (see Dropbear).
And how would sparring trained fighters (which I do at every opportunity) test the effectiveness of scenario based training. The only thing sparring tests is your sparring skills.

Sparring is scenario based training. The scenario is someone wants to beat you up and you have to stop him.

You create these differences based on what seems like silly reasons. Like nobody pulls guard in self defence. Except of course they do.
D
Mugger left begging for police after attacking martial arts champion

Which kind of breaks down that point a bit.

In my experience of self defence. People on the street fight however they want to.

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So armed with this amazing insight into fighting. If it works for you that is how you should approach self defence.

This is an important difference between evidence based training and faith based training.

 

[DaveB]

You're making an assumption here because you have no idea if any of those confrontations were avoidable, and just because someone is fighting back doesn't mean that the violence is consensual.

Further, I would consider avoiding getting your face and head smashed in by someone on top of you to be a pretty good example of self defense. Getting punched from that position can lead to severe head injuries or even death, especially on very hard surfaces.

I didn't watch your bjj videos because that wasn't what I was talking about and pretty much every fight that starts with two guys puffing chests and arguing is avoidable. Say sorry and walk away.

 

[DaveB]

Sparring is scenario based training. The scenario is someone wants to beat you up and you have to stop him.

You create these differences based on what seems like silly reasons. Like nobody pulls guard in self defence. Except of course they do.
D
Mugger left begging for police after attacking martial arts champion

Which kind of breaks down that point a bit.

In my experience of self defence. People on the street fight however they want to.

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

So armed with this amazing insight into fighting. If it works for you that is how you should approach self defence.

This is an important difference between evidence based training and faith based training.

In my experience people gee themselves up internally until they are ready to fight, then they throw the punch/headbutt/tackle from whatever position they are in. Much like the guys in FriedRice's clips.

This was also the unanimous experience of the police officers that trained me.

When does experience become evidence for you? Or does only experience that corroborates your opinions count?

Last points I'll make are slightly tangential. Well done on finding video of a guy getting shoe'd in while ground fighting and of someone using the much maligned skill of small joint manipulation (and Aikido of all arts) to defend himself. It's good to see an mma trainee on a forum who can see past at least some of the dogmatic assumptions about fighting.

 

[drop bear]

In my experience people gee themselves up internally until they are ready to fight, then they throw the punch/headbutt/tackle from whatever position they are in. Much like the guys in FriedRice's clips.

This was also the unanimous experience of the police officers that trained me.

When does experience become evidence for you? Or does only experience that corroborates your opinions count?

Last points I'll make are slightly tangential. Well done on finding video of a guy getting shoe'd in while ground fighting and of someone using the much maligned skill of small joint manipulation (and Aikido of all arts) to defend himself. It's good to see an mma trainee on a forum who can see past at least some of the dogmatic assumptions about fighting.

I even have one of a krav guy winning a fight. (I was as surprised as anyone)

The experience idea was in direct relation to your remarks that these things happen in your experience. Which you have produced as evidence and have not accepted any body else's.

The police officers who trained you may have a clue. May not. I have seen both types. My security instructor ironically can fight and paradoxically has no idea what he is doing.

The ones that fall into the category of a fight will always do this. I tend to be doubtful of.

Obviously by now you have realised I don't believe people necessarily follow the script supplied to them by self defence instructors.