Evidence based training vs faith based training.

[Gerry Seymour]

Just curious. When you prepare for these simulations, what kind of bias towards Aikido you add into the mind set. Or even if at all. Just wondering how difficult it is or not, to go from pure Dojo to everyday street life.

Can you explain what you mean by "bias towards Aikido"? I want to make sure I'm answering what you're asking.

 

[Transk53]

That punching someone in their face to KO them, solves most problems in the street, the ring, prison cells, Mad Max III Thunderdome, etc. If someone's untrained, than it's just going to be a lot easier. So rather than just train a ton of different hocus pocus and be bad to mediocre at all of them.... just keep it nice and simple with basic striking and get real good at it, including hard sparring. Then later, some grappling.

In my experiance it was easier to grapple, but I see what you mean. Obviously limited by local law and whatnot, a decent shot wins over a fancy move. Probably a good five out ten would submit with just a decent push anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That punching someone in their face to KO them, solves most problems in the street, the ring, prison cells, Mad Max III Thunderdome, etc. If someone's untrained, than it's just going to be a lot easier. So rather than just train a ton of different hocus pocus and be bad to mediocre at all of them.... just keep it nice and simple with basic striking and get real good at it, including hard sparring. Then later, some grappling.

That's a great approach if you assume every attacker is in position for that punch, and that none are on something that makes a KO more difficult, and that you can hit them that hard without hurting your hands (without gloves in the street), and that getting in position to do so won't put their buddy at your back, and that every attack is severe enough to warrant serious injury (which they can get if they hit their head on something hard), and that every student will remain fit enough their entire life to deliver that punch, and so much more.

Before you call something "hocus pocus", maybe figure out what you're overlooking in your over-simplified answer.

 

[Transk53]

Can you explain what you mean by "bias towards Aikido"? I want to make sure I'm answering what you're asking.

IE how much of the Aikido and what you know and practice, would influence how you would set up a scenario for a street situation, and how much Aikido could you apply to a scenario legally. I'm sure there would be technique that you would have to resist using as to not go OTT.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IE how much of the Aikido and what you know and practice, would influence how you would set up a scenario for a street situation, and how much Aikido could you apply to a scenario legally. I'm sure there would be technique that you would have to resist using as to not go OTT.

Ah. This depends whether we are doing drills (not what we call them, but it's what they are) or simulations.

The drills are built around learning a specific movement, technique, or principle, so the attacks there are designed to make those possible. This would be like if I'm training someone to do a high block, I'll have a partner delivering high strikes - low strikes and tackles don't serve any purpose for cleaning up a high block. Likewise, if I want someone to learn to use the principle of aiki, I have to make sure they get an attack at a level that's appropriate for them to find the aiki response. (Quick definition: the difference is mostly whether you disrupt the attack just before it develops power/control or just after, without aiki, it's pure jujitsu - still useful, but requires more muscle.)

For the simulations, we don't have to make those allowances. We train a wide range of responses, some of which are decidedly un-aiki, highly linear, and use force-on-force. This allows even relatively new students to handle attacks (within their personal limits of skill) without having to set up for the specific attack.

So, in parts of training, there's some bias to developing that feel for the moment when aiki is possible (because defense is much easier and more effective if we can access that moment), but our heaviest focus is on realistic self-defense. In fact, part of what I changed in the curriculum was to add two "self-defense sets". During those (the basic set is the first thing any student learns in Shojin-ryu), there is no mention of or practice of aiki principles - just a focus on simple responses to basic, common attacks. During simulations, these are what most newer students will reach for, while more advanced students will be able to access the more "aiki" areas of the art, as well.

 

[Transk53]

Ah. This depends whether we are doing drills (not what we call them, but it's what they are) or simulations.

The drills are built around learning a specific movement, technique, or principle, so the attacks there are designed to make those possible. This would be like if I'm training someone to do a high block, I'll have a partner delivering high strikes - low strikes and tackles don't serve any purpose for cleaning up a high block. Likewise, if I want someone to learn to use the principle of aiki, I have to make sure they get an attack at a level that's appropriate for them to find the aiki response. (Quick definition: the difference is mostly whether you disrupt the attack just before it develops power/control or just after, without aiki, it's pure jujitsu - still useful, but requires more muscle.)

For the simulations, we don't have to make those allowances. We train a wide range of responses, some of which are decidedly un-aiki, highly linear, and use force-on-force. This allows even relatively new students to handle attacks (within their personal limits of skill) without having to set up for the specific attack.

So, in parts of training, there's some bias to developing that feel for the moment when aiki is possible (because defense is much easier and more effective if we can access that moment), but our heaviest focus is on realistic self-defense. In fact, part of what I changed in the curriculum was to add two "self-defense sets". During those (the basic set is the first thing any student learns in Shojin-ryu), there is no mention of or practice of aiki principles - just a focus on simple responses to basic, common attacks. During simulations, these are what most newer students will reach for, while more advanced students will be able to access the more "aiki" areas of the art, as well.

Thanks for the reply. Interesting.

 

[FriedRice]

That's a great approach if you assume every attacker is in position for that punch,

Which is why I said "most".

and that none are on something that makes a KO more difficult,

Precision, this takes practice.

and that you can hit them that hard without hurting your hands (without gloves in the street),

Again, precision. Also MMA fighters knows more about breaking hands than everyone else, because MMA gloves are paper thin. We train with 16oz Boxing and 7oz MMA sparring gloves....fight with 4oz. This makes us well aware of being careful to not break our hands and our partners' face.

and that getting in position to do so won't put their buddy at your back,

This is not rocket science. You just use footwork to keep them in front and if possible, the weaker one immediately in front, blocking the stronger one's attacks.

and that every attack is severe enough to warrant serious injury (which they can get if they hit their head on something hard),

Experienced fighters will understand this way more as we can adapt much quicker to the situation as fighting and sparring hard is just another day of good training. Many people that I see at Krav Maga gyms and other SD type TMA classes, usually get freaked out and excited way too soon and too much and often times goes ape-crap, swinging for the fences...gassing out real quick. And usually I can just play with them by jabbing and footwork. Trained fighters are way more calm and collected.

and that every student will remain fit enough their entire life to deliver that punch, and so much more.

Having trained at TKD, Kung-Fu, Karate and Traditional Jujutsu schools (before MMA)....and pretty much started out with TKD mostly, I can say that the transition to MMA was way more tough with just about everything, including the warmup exercise. Average Muay Thai class is 90 minutes....with 20-30 minutes of non-stop warmup...sometimes with two, 2-minute rounds of trying to hit 50 burpees/each (so 100 burpees in 4 mins). Then 4-5 straight, 2 minute rounds on pads with either a 30sec break or using that 30sec break to do 10 left kicks and 10 right kicks and 10 sets of jab crosses. Then 3-5 minutes of instructions, then 2-3 rounds each training that technique. Then the last 20 minutes of continuous clinch sparring.

After 90 mins of Muay Thai, we go straight to BJJ for another 90 minutes. So that's another 20-30 minutes of warmup drills....the instructions are 5-7 minutes, so that's a good time to rest.....then drilling the technique....then the last 30-45 minutes is sparring that works every muscle that was just wrecked in MT plus all the muscles that weren't. And this is minimum for the fighters, 3-5 days a week. It gets more intense if a tournament is coming up. Average people who trains there will usually do only 1 class.

Before you call something "hocus pocus", maybe figure out what you're overlooking in your over-simplified answer.

I've already been there and done that in TMA for many years and of different flavors. After such many years then transitioning to Muay Thai, I got my butt clobbered by MT students who've been training less time in MT (compared to the years I had in TMA). While you haven't trained in an MMA gym to know both sides.

 

[drop bear]

I think striving to leave ego behind is one of the very best steps any martial artist can try to take to improve their effectiveness.. well said.. though maybe that was not the point you were making and but well said anyways because there often is wisdom tucked away in your posts that is not always picked up on x

There is not much room for ego when you have been choked unconscious in class a few times.

 

[drop bear]

That's a great approach if you assume every attacker is in position for that punch, and that none are on something that makes a KO more difficult, and that you can hit them that hard without hurting your hands (without gloves in the street), and that getting in position to do so won't put their buddy at your back, and that every attack is severe enough to warrant serious injury (which they can get if they hit their head on something hard), and that every student will remain fit enough their entire life to deliver that punch, and so much more.

Before you call something "hocus pocus", maybe figure out what you're overlooking in your over-simplified answer.

There is more than enough hurt contained within the rulset to physically defend yourself. Eg. Face punching.

Now i am happy to break every rule there is in a street fight as well. But that is in addition to core technique. Not instead of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is why I said "most".



Precision, this takes practice.



Again, precision. Also MMA fighters knows more about breaking hands than everyone else, because MMA gloves are paper thin. We train with 16oz Boxing and 7oz MMA sparring gloves....fight with 4oz. This makes us well aware of being careful to not break our hands and our partners' face.



This is not rocket science. You just use footwork to keep them in front and if possible, the weaker one immediately in front, blocking the stronger one's attacks.



Experienced fighters will understand this way more as we can adapt much quicker to the situation as fighting and sparring hard is just another day of good training. Many people that I see at Krav Maga gyms and other SD type TMA classes, usually get freaked out and excited way too soon and too much and often times goes ape-crap, swinging for the fences...gassing out real quick. And usually I can just play with them by jabbing and footwork. Trained fighters are way more calm and collected.



Having trained at TKD, Kung-Fu, Karate and Traditional Jujutsu schools (before MMA)....and pretty much started out with TKD mostly, I can say that the transition to MMA was way more tough with just about everything, including the warmup exercise. Average Muay Thai class is 90 minutes....with 20-30 minutes of non-stop warmup...sometimes with two, 2-minute rounds of trying to hit 50 burpees/each (so 100 burpees in 4 mins). Then 4-5 straight, 2 minute rounds on pads with either a 30sec break or using that 30sec break to do 10 left kicks and 10 right kicks and 10 sets of jab crosses. Then 3-5 minutes of instructions, then 2-3 rounds each training that technique. Then the last 20 minutes of continuous clinch sparring.

After 90 mins of Muay Thai, we go straight to BJJ for another 90 minutes. So that's another 20-30 minutes of warmup drills....the instructions are 5-7 minutes, so that's a good time to rest.....then drilling the technique....then the last 30-45 minutes is sparring that works every muscle that was just wrecked in MT plus all the muscles that weren't. And this is minimum for the fighters, 3-5 days a week. It gets more intense if a tournament is coming up. Average people who trains there will usually do only 1 class.



I've already been there and done that in TMA for many years and of different flavors. After such many years then transitioning to Muay Thai, I got my butt clobbered by MT students who've been training less time in MT (compared to the years I had in TMA). While you haven't trained in an MMA gym to know both sides.

You seem determined to keep saying MMA is "the way". Go ahead, have your way. I don't actually care enough to keep correcting your overstatements.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is more than enough hurt contained within the rulset to physically defend yourself. Eg. Face punching.

Now i am happy to break every rule there is in a street fight as well. But that is in addition to core technique. Not instead of it.

Not sure how this is a reply to my comment, since I said nothing about rules.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is not much room for ego when you have been choked unconscious in class a few times.

Or had a friend or two hand your *** to you in sparring. Agreed.

 

[drop bear]

Not sure how this is a reply to my comment, since I said nothing about rules.

This is an explanation of the dynamic you are discussing with fried rice. If you are discussing something else then you are having a different discussion than what fried rice is having.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is an explanation of the dynamic you are discussing with fried rice. If you are discussing something else then you are having a different discussion than what fried rice is having.

Fried Rice didn't say anything about rules, either.

 

[drop bear]

Fried Rice didn't say anything about rules, either.

Which is why i did. To explain the dynamic.


The idea is to train in a manner that is realistic. And not some pretend notion of what will occur in the street. So if you knock a guy out in the gym who is trying to knock you out while contending with 16 ounce gloves. Rules a ref and a mat.

You really real world knocked him out. If you are training for the real world then that is the real world.

If you wanted to train for the street. You still need to train for the real world.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is why i did. To explain the dynamic.

I'm still not sure what the rules have to do with the issue. The discussion was about KTFO as a cure for most all attacks.

 

[drop bear]

I'm still not sure what the rules have to do with the issue. The discussion was about KTFO as a cure for most all attacks.

No he didn't. He said knocking someone out in the gym is the same as knocking them out anywhere else.

See the above edit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is why i did. To explain the dynamic.


The idea is to train in a manner that is realistic. And not some pretend notion of what will occur in the street. So if you knock a guy out in the gym who is trying to knock you out while contending with 16 ounce gloves. Rules a ref and a mat.

You really real world knocked him out. If you are training for the real world then that is the real world.

If you wanted to train for the street. You still need to train for the real world.

So, I repeat. Do you assert that all likely attacks on the street are the same as what you'd get from a controlled, trained opponent? A few YouTube videos shows that to be untrue. We train to include those attacks I would not personally render, but which happen on the street. You are too clearly intelligent to not understand that, so I have to assume you're being purposefully belligerent.

 

[drop bear]

So, I repeat. Do you assert that all likely attacks on the street are the same as what you'd get from a controlled, trained opponent? A few YouTube videos shows that to be untrue. We train to include those attacks I would not personally render, but which happen on the street. You are too clearly intelligent to not understand that, so I have to assume you're being purposefully belligerent.

The attacks on the street will probably be less effective than the attack in the gym.

This is a brophy tent. Here you get drunk and challenge pro boxers. This is what an uncontrolled untrained attacker looks like when compared to a trained controlled attacker.

I spar everyone from trained guys to untrained guys and from any system I can lay my hands on. So that I get a real world evaluation of the sorts of attacks I may face.

Nobody has to pretend that they are a mugger or street fighter.

Recently we had a gymnast come in an roll. Untrained he could hold his own with trained jitsers due to his training in physicality. All of these dynamics are real world.

Asking someone to not really bear hug you so your defence works is not real world.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The attacks on the street will probably be less effective than the attack in the gym.

This is a brophy tent. Here you get drunk and challenge pro boxers. This is what an uncontrolled untrained attacker looks like when compared to a trained controlled attacker.

I spar everyone from trained guys to untrained guys and from any system I can lay my hands on. So that I get a real world evaluation of the sorts of attacks I may face.

Nobody has to pretend that they are a mugger or street fighter.

Recently we had a gymnast come in an roll. Untrained he could hold his own with trained jitsers due to his training in physicality. All of these dynamics are real world.

Asking someone to not really bear hug you so your defence works is not real world.

I stand by my last sentence. You are choosing not to hear. I am done with this thread, because you choose not to see certain evidence - you need to be right. I can't fix that for you.


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