Evidence based training vs faith based training.

[drop bear]

I revel in my bad mma as I appreciate my good mma.

That is how you leave your ego beind

 

[Hanzou]

So if I show you a bad video of BJJ and MMA then all BJJ and MMA people are exactly the same and do not train right and are horrible martial artists......and what part of "But many who train it these days, do not train it that way. However some still do." are you not understanding.

Well are there some better Baguazhang fighting videos that we can see?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You see this in the self defence portion of almost any grading Where the self defence move must always end in success. Nobody is going to try to fail their partner. So at some stage you let the move work.

This is not a true representation of how that move works.

That's not how a self-defense test should work. In ours, the attacker is assigned an attack (given on a card, so the defender doesn't know it). There's a percentage of successful outcomes necessary, and it doesn't matter what manner or technique is used, except that at the black belt test, there's a requirement to see the "aiki" principle expressed regularly, since that's a core principle of our art. That means we actually attack to see if they can defend, because they should earn that success the same way we did. It gets ugly sometimes (I actually hid behind a large attacker in one of mine, restraining him for about a second until I saw an opening to take his partner down).

 

[drop bear]

That's not how a self-defense test should work. In ours, the attacker is assigned an attack (given on a card, so the defender doesn't know it). There's a percentage of successful outcomes necessary, and it doesn't matter what manner or technique is used, except that at the black belt test, there's a requirement to see the "aiki" principle expressed regularly, since that's a core principle of our art. That means we actually attack to see if they can defend, because they should earn that success the same way we did. It gets ugly sometimes (I actually hid behind a large attacker in one of mine, restraining him for about a second until I saw an opening to take his partner down).

If you get a position like a rear bear hug. The position itself is increadably dominant. Basically if you are both fighting for sheep stations the guy in the bear hug will probably loose.

We do drills as you describe. Sometimes the person can defend only one in twenty attacks. But they are elements like taking someone's back or mount.

Unarmed veses knife also falls into this trap a bit.

If a grading hinges on succeeding then you have to manipulate the test to make it work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you get a position like a rear bear hug. The position itself is increadably dominant. Basically if you are both fighting for sheep stations the guy in the bear hug will probably loose.

We do drills as you describe. Sometimes the person can defend only one in twenty attacks. But they are elements like taking someone's back or mount.

Unarmed veses knife also falls into this trap a bit.

If a grading hinges on succeeding then you have to manipulate the test to make it work.

Of course, otherwise, you're just competing. I seriously doubt I'll ever be attacked by someone who has 20 years of experience in Nihon Goshin Aikido. Thus, seeing if I can defend the attacks that person would give someone else with the same art, is simply unrealistic. We train most against a range of attacks that are more likely to happen, so those are the attacks that show up in the self-defense tests. No sense testing a brown belt to see if he can stop me from defeating his NGA - I probably can do that nearly 100%. I'd expect the same for that level of differential in any art. To simulate self-defense situations, you have to simulate a more common attacker than the person in the school, otherwise you don't get to practice against some of the likely attacks and responses.

 

[drop bear]

Of course, otherwise, you're just competing. I seriously doubt I'll ever be attacked by someone who has 20 years of experience in Nihon Goshin Aikido. Thus, seeing if I can defend the attacks that person would give someone else with the same art, is simply unrealistic. We train most against a range of attacks that are more likely to happen, so those are the attacks that show up in the self-defense tests. No sense testing a brown belt to see if he can stop me from defeating his NGA - I probably can do that nearly 100%. I'd expect the same for that level of differential in any art. To simulate self-defense situations, you have to simulate a more common attacker than the person in the school, otherwise you don't get to practice against some of the likely attacks and responses.

And you have the conflict between evidence based and faith based.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well are there some better Baguazhang fighting videos that we can see?

Don't know...try looking.

Let me explain the culture to you one more time most of your good Chinese Sifus are not going to film anything to prove anything because they don't want to, or see the need to. They are not all about chest thumping and advertising. I lost a real good sifu because he was web savvy and I was so excited about training in the style that I went and posted about it..... he saw it... Training stopped.

you don't believe me, or want to respond with some condescending comment.... I'm ok with that.

 

[drop bear]

Don't know...try looking.

Let me explain the culture to you one more time most of your good Chinese Sifus are not going to film anything to prove anything because they don't want to, or see the need to. They are not all about chest thumping and advertising. I lost a real good sifu because he was web savvy and I was so excited about training in the style that I went and posted about it..... he saw it... Training stopped.

you don't believe me, or want to respond with some condescending comment.... I'm ok with that.

So that is essentially faith based training? Or does evidence exists somewhere else?

Why is there any Baguazhang video on YouTube?. I would have thought if there was an aversion to it then we would not see any. Rather that as you believe just a poor representation.

Are the Baguazhang sifus who do appear on video chest thumpers? That seems a bit mean.

 

[Xue Sheng]

For the record, all I see it "Ignored Member" in reference to whatever the Ignored Member posted

 

[drop bear]

For the record, all I see it "Ignored Member" in reference to whatever the Ignored Member posted

That's strange. I can read your posts fine.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's strange. I can read your posts fine.

He is ignoring you, so he cannot see your posts.
You, apparently, are not ignoring him, so you can still see his posts.

 

[Hanzou]

Don't know...try looking.

I have. I'm hoping that you have access that I simply don't have.

Let me explain the culture to you one more time most of your good Chinese Sifus are not going to film anything to prove anything because they don't want to, or see the need to. They are not all about chest thumping and advertising. I lost a real good sifu because he was web savvy and I was so excited about training in the style that I went and posted about it..... he saw it... Training stopped.

Then why are there literally hundreds of thousands of Kung fu videos showing chest thumping and advertising? Even if we go beyond Chinese sources, we still have plenty of western Kung Fu instructors who are all about pushing their MA. I know some of the instructors out of NYC are notorious for their shameless self promotion and "fraud busting".

Here's one such example;

I don't think any of those guys were excommunicated from their respective schools.

you don't believe me, or want to respond with some condescending comment.... I'm ok with that.

I don't remember making any condescending comments towards you. I'm simply asking questions and seeking answers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you get a position like a rear bear hug. The position itself is increadably dominant.

When you use "bear hug" on your opponent, you have controlled his waist, the center part of his body, that will be your advantage. If your opponent can control your head, put pressure on your neck, force your body to "bend side way" and spring your legs into a bow-arrow stance, your bear hug advantage will be gone.

The issue is whether you can use your "bear hug" to pick your opponent up, or drag him down, or spin him in circle before his "head lock" can bend your spine side way. You just can't do anything to your opponent is your "spine is bending side way".

 

[drop bear]

When you use "bear hug" on your opponent, you have controlled his waist, the center part of his body, that will be your advantage. If your opponent can control your head, put pressure on your neck, force your body to "bend side way" and spring your legs into a bow-arrow stance, your bear hug advantage will be gone.

The issue is whether you can use your "bear hug" to pick your opponent up, or drag him down, or spin him in circle before his "head lock" can bend your spine side way. You just can't do anything to your opponent is your "spine is bending side way".

I am not suggesting there are not escapes i am saying you still have the mechanical advantage if you are bear hugging someone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you have the conflict between evidence based and faith based.

Well, the only way to get evidence of real-life effectiveness is to get into real-life danger. Nobody is going to do that. So, we mix sparring with simulations. Some testing against people who know what you're doing and can counter it, some training to deal with more likely attacks and attackers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not suggesting there are not escapes i am saying you still have the mechanical advantage if you are bear hugging someone.

Yes, and a dangerous advantage if they don't respond well and quickly to neutralize that advantage.

 

[drop bear]

Well, the only way to get evidence of real-life effectiveness is to get into real-life danger. Nobody is going to do that. So, we mix sparring with simulations. Some testing against people who know what you're doing and can counter it, some training to deal with more likely attacks and attackers.

Again this is nuanced. You don't have to get mugged to find someone to bear hug you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again this is nuanced. You don't have to get mugged to find someone to bear hug you.

No, but if they give a bear hug attempting to defeat precisely the kinds of responses I'm likely to give (for instance if I gave that bear hug to another black belt, doing my best to stop him), that's not a realistic test of the response for the real world. Will we do that some? Yes - it's good to get frustrated and have to look for other openings. But that's still not realistic training for the real world. So, we give more specific instruction to the attacker - "grab him and pull back like you're going to throw him to the ground" for instance. Now they have to follow through on that attack, rather than simply trying to stop the response. Combine that simulation with some sparring and randori (freestyle grappling - like "rolling" in BJJ), and you have both sides. You get to work on likely attacks and responses, and you get to work on what to do when someone stops you.

Incidentally, part of our simulation time is spent working on specifically how to block a technique, so the defender has to figure out what to do next. That's one of the steps toward preparing students to handle someone who either has training or just gets lucky.

 

[drop bear]

No, but if they give a bear hug attempting to defeat precisely the kinds of responses I'm likely to give (for instance if I gave that bear hug to another black belt, doing my best to stop him), that's not a realistic test of the response for the real world

OK. This is interesting. So the real world is not what is happening at the moment but what should happen to you elsewhere.

Does that not seem a bit disconnected?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Why is there any Baguazhang video on YouTube?. I would have thought if there was an aversion to it then we would not see any. Rather that as you believe just a poor representation.

Because no one group controls the internet or the martial art i question.