Evidence based training vs faith based training.

[RTKDCMB]

This is not directed to anyone in particular, just a general comment.

There is more to evidence than what you can personally see with your own eyes or what you personally accept as evidence.

 

[drop bear]

Because no one group controls the internet or the martial art i question.

So then the representation of a martial art on YouTube is a true representation. And not just the really be martial artists.

Which sounded pretty implausible to me.

 

[FriedRice]

Don't know...try looking.

Let me explain the culture to you one more time most of your good Chinese Sifus are not going to film anything to prove anything because they don't want to, or see the need to. They are not all about chest thumping and advertising. I lost a real good sifu because he was web savvy and I was so excited about training in the style that I went and posted about it..... he saw it... Training stopped.

you don't believe me, or want to respond with some condescending comment.... I'm ok with that.

Are you referring to the Chinese culture? Are you Chinese or Asian? Have you lived in China?

 

[FriedRice]

So that is essentially faith based training? Or does evidence exists somewhere else?

Why is there any Baguazhang video on YouTube?. I would have thought if there was an aversion to it then we would not see any. Rather that as you believe just a poor representation.

Are the Baguazhang sifus who do appear on video chest thumpers? That seems a bit mean.

Here's a Bagua Zhang vs. Muay Thai video. They fought at the NYC tournament called "Man Up" or something like that. This was a huge grudge match between them as there was a lot of internet warring exchanges. But props to both for stepping up and backing up their mouths rather than just e-thugging all day.

Muay Thai was being very nice to not knee to the face when the Kung-Fu guy had no idea what to do in while caught in the Plum. Kung-Fu guy also complains about eye poke at 3:05 ??? That's a new one, especially when he had on fingerless MMA gloves vs. what looks like 16oz Boxing gloves for MT.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's unfair to compare MT with Bagua. The MT is a "sport" that means MT guys would spar in the ring all the time. The Bagua is not a "sport" that means Bagua guys would spend more time in solo form training, walk in circle, and striking into the thin air.

IMO, it will be more proper to compare

- MT with boxing, or
- MT with wrestling.

If you spend your last 10 years in the ring and I spend my last 10 years on the mat, it will be interested to see whether you can knock me down first, or I can take you down first. To compare a "sport MA" and a "non-sport MA" is just unfair. How can a part time job person be able to do better job than a full time job person?

 

[Hanzou]

It's unfair to compare MT with Bagua. The MT is a "sport" that means MT guys would spar in the ring all the time. The Bagua is not a "sport" that means Bagua guys would spend more time in solo form training, walk in circle, and striking into the thin air.

IMO, it will be more proper to compare

- MT with boxing, or
- MT with wrestling.

If you spend your last 10 years in the ring and I spend my last 10 years on the mat, it will be interested to see whether you can knock me down first, or I can take you down first. To compare a "sport MA" and a "non-sport MA" is just unfair. How can a part time job person be able to do better job than a full time job person?

Well we've heard arguments that people who do forms and kata have better striking and more balanced punching and kicking than sports guys. A few here have also made the argument that the methodology behind styles like Baguazhang are better than the methodology of boxing and MT.

If all that is true, there's no reason that the baguazhang practicioner can't be successful in that environment.

Does anyone actually believe that the outcome of that fight be any different if those two fought on the street?

 

[drop bear]

It's unfair to compare MT with Bagua. The MT is a "sport" that means MT guys would spar in the ring all the time. The Bagua is not a "sport" that means Bagua guys would spend more time in solo form training, walk in circle, and striking into the thin air.

IMO, it will be more proper to compare

- MT with boxing, or
- MT with wrestling.

If you spend your last 10 years in the ring and I spend my last 10 years on the mat, it will be interested to see whether you can knock me down first, or I can take you down first. To compare a "sport MA" and a "non-sport MA" is just unfair. How can a part time job person be able to do better job than a full time job person?

How do you feel the muay Thai guy used that environment to his advantage?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How do you feel the muay Thai guy used that environment to his advantage?

More fighting experience will be that MT guy's advantage. Also that MT guy's low roundhouse kick could give his opponent more trouble than his opponent's front kick can give to him.

 

[drop bear]

More fighting experience will be that MT guy's advantage. Also that MT guy's low roundhouse kick could give his opponent more trouble than his opponent's front kick can give to him.

Fair enough.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK. This is interesting. So the real world is not what is happening at the moment but what should happen to you elsewhere.

Does that not seem a bit disconnected?

What part of what I said did you actually miss? The response from someone trained in my art will likely not be what I encounter on the street, so I train for those, as well. Wet rain for both trained and untrained attackers. If you really think nothing happens on the street that won't show up between trained combatants, you are the one who is disconnected.

 

[drop bear]

What part of what I said did you actually miss? The response from someone trained in my art will likely not be what I encounter on the street, so I train for those, as well. Wet rain for both trained and untrained attackers. If you really think nothing happens on the street that won't show up between trained combatants, you are the one who is disconnected.

I am sure all sorts of things will happen on the street. But the real world is where you are now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am sure all sorts of things will happen on the street. But the real world is where you are now.

So the street isn't part of the real world to you? I'm not preparing for the dojo. I'm preparing for the street.

 

[FriedRice]

It's unfair to compare MT with Bagua. The MT is a "sport" that means MT guys would spar in the ring all the time. The Bagua is not a "sport" that means Bagua guys would spend more time in solo form training, walk in circle, and striking into the thin air.

IMO, it will be more proper to compare

- MT with boxing, or
- MT with wrestling.

If you spend your last 10 years in the ring and I spend my last 10 years on the mat, it will be interested to see whether you can knock me down first, or I can take you down first. To compare a "sport MA" and a "non-sport MA" is just unfair. How can a part time job person be able to do better job than a full time job person?

Knocking someone out, answers most to all questions about the effectiveness of their training.

 

[FriedRice]

So the street isn't part of the real world to you? I'm not preparing for the dojo. I'm preparing for the street.

Punching someone really hard in the face to knock them the F out, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring. Usually, it's much easier in the street as compared to inside the ring where the other guy is of similar skill level.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Punching someone really hard in the face to knock them the F out, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring. Usually, it's much easier in the street as compared to inside the ring where the other guy is of similar skill level.

What has that to do with the discussion? That punch is one possible response, but to what? That "what" is what's in question. There are attacks that can happen on the street that are unlikely from a trained opponent, unless they are simulating that attack.

 

[drop bear]

So the street isn't part of the real world to you? I'm not preparing for the dojo. I'm preparing for the street.

Where I am is the real world. Where I might be is the hypothetical world.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where I am is the real world. Where I might be is the hypothetical world.

Then we need to use a common vocabulary, or we can't even keep up the discussion. When I am training, that's not the "real world" I'm training for - that world exists outside the dojo. Remember that my training is almost entirely centered around self-defense, so that's what we refer to when we say "real world" - a term we use frequently to remind people that what they experience in the dojo is never going to be the same as an attack out there.

I agree that, if we are being philosophical, the real world is the moment we are in, however, so let's call the situations I train for "real attacks" (as opposed to fights/sparring between partners/opponents).

Does that make it easier to discuss? So, now my assertion is that a real attack won't be limited to those a well-disciplined, trained martial artist (especially one in my own art) might deliver by choice. So, we add simulations of probable real attacks, in addition to our sparring.

 

[Transk53]

Then we need to use a common vocabulary, or we can't even keep up the discussion. When I am training, that's not the "real world" I'm training for - that world exists outside the dojo. Remember that my training is almost entirely centered around self-defense, so that's what we refer to when we say "real world" - a term we use frequently to remind people that what they experience in the dojo is never going to be the same as an attack out there.

I agree that, if we are being philosophical, the real world is the moment we are in, however, so let's call the situations I train for "real attacks" (as opposed to fights/sparring between partners/opponents).

Does that make it easier to discuss? So, now my assertion is that a real attack won't be limited to those a well-disciplined, trained martial artist (especially one in my own art) might deliver by choice. So, we add simulations of probable real attacks, in addition to our sparring.

Just curious. When you prepare for these simulations, what kind of bias towards Aikido you add into the mind set. Or even if at all. Just wondering how difficult it is or not, to go from pure Dojo to everyday street life.

 

[Jenna]

I revel in my bad mma as I appreciate my good mma.

That is how you leave your ego beind

I think striving to leave ego behind is one of the very best steps any martial artist can try to take to improve their effectiveness.. well said.. though maybe that was not the point you were making and but well said anyways because there often is wisdom tucked away in your posts that is not always picked up on x

 

[FriedRice]

What has that to do with the discussion? That punch is one possible response, but to what? That "what" is what's in question. There are attacks that can happen on the street that are unlikely from a trained opponent, unless they are simulating that attack.

That punching someone in their face to KO them, solves most problems in the street, the ring, prison cells, Mad Max III Thunderdome, etc. If someone's untrained, than it's just going to be a lot easier. So rather than just train a ton of different hocus pocus and be bad to mediocre at all of them.... just keep it nice and simple with basic striking and get real good at it, including hard sparring. Then later, some grappling.