ETA: The Invisible People

[sojobow]

A few times (maybe only 3) in the past, the topic of the Ninja would pop up for no specific reason other that I had been inquiring into the subject of the ancient people of Japan known as "Ninja." Usually while in a bookstore, someone in a very low tone, would almost whisper to me: "If you really want to know who they were, look up the subject of the Eta of Japan, later known as Burakumin. It will explain who they were and why they haven't existed in Japan for 300 years."

I did as they suggested and found that, if true, quite a bit is explained relative to why little is written historically about the Ninja in Japan and why we are left to endless arguements. Personally, I hope it isn't true as the subject of the Burakumin is extremely disgusting.

I don't want to sway your opinions so I won't even define "Eta" or "Burakumin" herein. I will say that minimal research (even in Yahoo or Google) will make one think: What if?

 

[Don Roley]

Usually while in a bookstore, someone in a very low tone, would almost whisper to me: "If you really want to know who they were, look up the subject of the Eta of Japan, later known as Burakumin. It will explain who they were and why they haven't existed in Japan for 300 years."

ROFLMAO!!!!!

The idea of a mysterious ninjutsu expert wandering around a bookstore dispensing advice to the right people sounds like a great start for a comic book plot.

Oh, and both the ninja and the eta were known to have existed up to the Meiji restoration. Your "research" seems to be lacking.

 

[sojobow]

ROFLMAO!!!!!

The idea of a mysterious ninjutsu expert wandering around a bookstore dispensing advice to the right people sounds like a great start for a comic book plot.

Oh, and both the ninja and the eta were known to have existed up to the Meiji restoration. Your "research" seems to be lacking.

The question is were the people of Iga and Koga considered or classified as Eta? It would be appreciated if you and others would assist in answering the question. If I knew, I wouldn't be asking. I will agree that my research is definately lacking. I learn more as I live more.

 

[Cruentus]

ROFLMAO!!!!!

The idea of a mysterious ninjutsu expert wandering around a bookstore dispensing advice to the right people sounds like a great start for a comic book plot.

Oh, and both the ninja and the eta were known to have existed up to the Meiji restoration. Your "research" seems to be lacking.

That was me dude. I usually walk around book stores and whisper secret ninja stuff while "cloaked up" to unsuspecting teenagers. :ninja: :rofl:

 

[heretic888]

Two things I wanted to add:

I had been inquiring into the subject of the ancient people of Japan known as "Ninja."

That's kinda funny, considering the word (errr, pronounciation) "ninja" is less than 200 years old. I wouldn't consider that "ancient" by any means.

The question is were the people of Iga and Koga considered or classified as Eta?

Nope.

Laterz.

 

[sojobow]

Two things I wanted to add:

I had been inquiring into the subject of the ancient people of Japan known as "Ninja."

That's kinda funny, considering the word (errr, pronounciation) "ninja" is less than 200 years old. I wouldn't consider that "ancient" by any means.

The question is were the people of Iga and Koga considered or classified as Eta?

Nope.

Laterz.

Hope this post isn't too long. I couldn't see how to make it shorter.

The word "ninja" may or may not be ancient, but I would consider the martial system as such. Also, I found the following information today regarding these people being or considered as Eta. As stated before, my own interest is in trying to understand why would such a rich history of a people being subjegated. If the Ninja were in fact Eta, this would expain some of the omission of information in that it means that certain Japanese in the "ruling class" were actually Racist Bigots and had a history of such and do not want history to the modern world to recognize them as such. I also understand that certain Japanese today maintain secret records/skrolls etc listing the names of the families they consider "Eta." They will not allow their children to marry into these "families" whose names appear within these lists and their racism (strange as it seems) supposedly exist even today. As I find out more, I'll post it as I definately wouldn't want some racist to define me and maybe this information may fill in some of the gaps in the martial system.

The first article appears on more than one website. I'll find the original author:

From Bujinkan Sakushin Dojo:

The Eta:

Among the more remoter areas of Japan particularly in mountainous regions of Iga and Koga, lived the outcasts of Japanese society, the Eta. (who would eventuality become known as the Burakumin, the more collective outcasts of Japan .)

According to the great Chinese classic 'The Art of War' written by Sun Tzu , covert war was by far the most important and convient way to wage war. Daimyo who were familiar with the writtings of Sun Tzu, began to hire the Eta to do the work their warriors so dispised. By the 14th century, these outcasts have developed into secert societies of covert mercenaries skilled in armed and unarmed combat.

As early as the 12th century the Iga inhabitents must have had a fearful rebutation in war. An when a challenge is offered to a dual during this period a reply is recorded. "I am not a great man as great men go, but I am from Iga." Iga and Koga were to become area notorious for being the great home of Ninjitsu.

The use of Ninja:

Ninja were basically used for covert work. This includeed assassination, spying and involtration of enemy fortifications, and even were used as bodyguards or 'anti~ninja ninja'.

Also noted on web:

The vast majority of ninja belong to clans, consisting of several related families and their closest friends. Many clans maintain their base of operations in remote forest villages, but the larger ones, and those who are loyal to a particular ruler, faction or region, have branches anywhere they need to be, sending entire families or teams at a time. While the public generally fear ninja as killers and the samurai look down upon them as eta, filth, the truth is for many chieftains and daimyos, the ninja are as vital a tool as their more honored vassals. Unlike samurai however, who are expected to follow bushido and giri, honor and duty, even so far as to kill their own family and friends if their lord commands, ninja will refuse and be offended any order that will fruitlessly waste lives and weaken their clan.


The question is not Racism in general, but is basically: Would racism be a rational reason for the deletion of portions of the history of the Ninja. I am also noticing small hints that Racism may have also developed (during the 13th - 15th Centuries) between the Clans of Iga and the families of Koga. Very small hints, but hints nonetheless. Again, I hope this also is actually untrue. sojobow

 

[heretic888]

You will also note the lack of sources in that site's "history" description there --- just matter-of-fact statements and such. This really isn't that surprising, though, as many dojo sites (both X-kan and not) have a similar presentation with their art's "history".

The following was part of a post found on the kutaki.org message boards, in which the poster discusses material found in a book called The World Turned Upside Down - Medieval Japanese Society by Pierre Francois Soury:

"It talks alot about the different actors and movements, including the relatively self-governing villages of Central Japan, and there's about three pages (pp 190-192) or so on the Iga Commune, that was run by 'jizamurai without any real suzerain or ultimate power. It survived well... and was mainly concerned with defense and war.'

The book says that everything ultimately fell apart when Oda Nobunga invaded, but that guerilla warfare continued until Ieyasu made some of the Iga people into special auxiliaries."

Last time I checked, there's a world of difference between 'jizamurai' and 'eta'.

Laterz.

 

[Elizium]

That was me dude. I usually walk around book stores and whisper secret ninja stuff while "cloaked up" to unsuspecting teenagers. :ninja: :rofl:

As a side note and to inject some humor into this thread...

For what you wrote, you could be arrested for this act. Those poor deluded zit faced, myoptic D&D players running away shouting "the books are talking of ninjas again...."

 

[sojobow]

."

Last time I checked, there's a world of difference between 'jizamurai' and 'eta'.Laterz.

Thanx for the reply. From what I'm gathering, the Jizamurai is a term usually referring to the Mikkyo Buddhist Farmer Warriors of Iga. I would definately be interested in knowing your explanation or defination of the differences between the Jizamurai and Eta.

Thus far, it seems it depends on what period of Japanese History one is referring too. It looks like that, in the period following the fall of the Chinese Sui dynasty (after 589-618 AD), there were groups classified as "Hinin" (The Expendables or The Sub-Humans). These "Hinin" later became known as Eta after which, the Hinin/Eta were absorbed into the Burakumin classification in name only.

Put simplistically, the Samurai hated the Hinin because the Hinin (later called Ninja) were just "low-class farmers" who didn't follow the Bushido Codes; were expendable and would be given assignments and duties that the Bushido Codes forbid Samurai to do and THEN GET PAID FOR DOING IT (Dam&& Ninjas). These Hinin would go places, enter into assignments even the Buddhist Monks could not participate in but. Because of the economic and social systems existing during these periods of time, the Samurai class could write history as THEY saw fit.

There are articles that all say basically, the same thing, but one author uses "Hinin," another uses "Eta," another uses "Ninja" but they all say basically the same thing. You have now added Jizamurai to the mix. But, it seems the Jizamurai link only refers to the Eta of Iga and not to the Eta of Koga.

It gets really crazy when another author adds that the Ninja or Eta are hated even today by some Japanese families because these families believe that certain "Ninja Clans" were responsible for the assassination of a family member(s) centuries past. They (the Ninja) are also hated because the recognized oldest Ryu in Japan is a Samurai Ryu and this group (Samurai) -- for the reasons stated above, must downgrade the Ninjitsu fighting systems in order that their own Samurai systems survive. Funny thing is that (from what I've read), this oldest Ryu in Japan, being a Samurai school, originally included Ninjitsu in its curriculum.

Thanks again for your input. Interested in what you believe the differences are between the Ninja, Eta, Hinin and Jizamurai.

As far as my limited knowledge of the Oda Nobunga invasions, I think there is a description (historical) of Nobunga's first invasion which the Iga were successfull in repelling. The Iga were supposedly unsuccessful in repelling Nobunga's second invasion. Most of the Iga Clans were destroyed but some of Iga's Clans survived (which must be true). The numbers I've heard were in excess of 100,000 - 500,000 Ninja - dead.

 

[Don Roley]

Sojobow,
That entire post of your was so full of holes and misrepresentations of the facts that I do not even know where to begin.

 

[sojobow]

Sojobow,
That entire post of your was so full of holes and misrepresentations of the facts that I do not even know where to begin.

Try this:

Define or tell us who were/are the 1)Eta, 2)Hinin, 3)Jizamurai and 4)Burakumin. If they were other names for "ninja" or not. This information would be good to start with.

Also, just pick out any 2 holes and fill them up for us. We understand that you currently live and teach in Japan thus there may be some things you might not wish to discuss in the public forum.

 

[heretic888]

*chuckles* Oy vey.

Thanx for the reply. From what I'm gathering, the Jizamurai is a term usually referring to the Mikkyo Buddhist Farmer Warriors of Iga.

Nope.

I would definately be interested in knowing your explanation or defination of the differences between the Jizamurai and Eta.

As I understand it, eta are a social class of individuals relegated to doing the "nasty" work in feudal Japanese culture --- which was typically stuff revolving around handling dead bodies, like butchers and undertakers (due to the emphasis on "purity" in Shinto religion). This really didn't necessarily include "under-handed" stuff like espionage or assassination, as samurai had been doing that stuff themselves for centuries (and continued to do so under the Edo Period).

Jizamurai, I have read, are one of the lower ranks within the samurai/bushi class. They are literally 'warriors living as farmers', or rural samurai (not to be confused with ashigaru, or peasant-soldiers). My understanding is that they ceased to exist during the Edo Period, when the dilineations between classes became much more rigid and solidified.

In any event, "ninja" was not a social class. Eta and jizamurai were. Ninja is a job description, nothing more.

Put simplistically, the Samurai hated the Hinin because the Hinin (later called Ninja) were just "low-class farmers" who didn't follow the Bushido Codes; were expendable and would be given assignments and duties that the Bushido Codes forbid Samurai to do and THEN GET PAID FOR DOING IT (Dam&& Ninjas).

Two things:

1) The hinin, eta, or whatever were not "hated" in Japanese society.

2) Bushido, per se, was not codified and established until the 1700's by a Christian samurai (whose name eludes me at the moment). "Dirty tactics" were employed all the time during the Sengoku Jidai.

There are articles that all say basically, the same thing, but one author uses "Hinin," another uses "Eta," another uses "Ninja" but they all say basically the same thing.

Two more things:

1) I haven't seen any source outside of Hayes that identified the Iga and Koga "ninja" as eta.

2) Eta is a social class. Ninja is not.

But, it seems the Jizamurai link only refers to the Eta of Iga and not to the Eta of Koga.

Yet two more things:

1) As I understand it, both the Iga and Koga "ninja" were jizamurai.

2) Jizamurai is not an eta, it is a samurai.

It gets really crazy when another author adds that the Ninja or Eta are hated even today by some Japanese families because these families believe that certain "Ninja Clans" were responsible for the assassination of a family member(s) centuries past.

Well, as Stephen Turnbull pointed out in the recent Discovery channel special, there isn't exactly a whole lot of evidence for "ninja assassinations" in the first place. These guys were guerillas, not hitmen.

They (the Ninja) are also hated because the recognized oldest Ryu in Japan is a Samurai Ryu and this group (Samurai) -- for the reasons stated above, must downgrade the Ninjitsu fighting systems in order that their own Samurai systems survive.

Uhhhh.... nope. Nothing true about that at all.

Funny thing is that (from what I've read), this oldest Ryu in Japan, being a Samurai school, originally included Ninjitsu in its curriculum.

I assume you are referring to the Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu. Yeah, it still has some ninjutsu teachings, from what I understand. No big deal, really, as a lot of koryu did, too. Its not as rare as many people think.

Just my opinions, of course. Laterz.

 

[sojobow]

Thanks a lot. Finally, someone is kind enough to present some definition of terms of which I have an interest. Thus far, I have noted others (on other websites and books, etc) with your same definitions and opinions as well as others presenting similar opinions and definitions that I have presented. Now, I'll have to figure out which fit and which don't.

I also like your definition regarding Ninja being a job description which I basically agree. One question though - which seems somewhat confusing: please explain in somewhat more detail what you mean by "nothing more than a job description."

I have also read the definition that a "Ninja" was just someone that practiced "Ninjutsu" and that a Shinobi is someone very good at Ninjutsu.

Also, since you define Eta as a social class, could not the people of Iga and Koga belong to this social class (Eta) during the period of time we're talking about?

My understanding is that Japanese still honor/worship the Samurai cult or culture in the way depicted by Japanese pilots during WWII who actually carried their Samurai swords into the cockpit with them but don't really recognize/honor the arts of Ninjutsu. The University of Tokyo teaches Bushido or the Samurai arts without references to Ninjutsu which was part of the oldest Ryu. Never set foot in Japan or attended the University. But, if the above is in the least true, how would it (Ryu without Ninjutsu) be explained?

 

[heretic888]

I have also read the definition that a "Ninja" was just someone that practiced "Ninjutsu" and that a Shinobi is someone very good at Ninjutsu.

*chuckle* That's pretty funny, considering "ninja" and "shinobi" are different pronounciations for the same kanji.

In any event, not everyone that practices "ninjutsu" is a "ninja".

Also, since you define Eta as a social class, could not the people of Iga and Koga belong to this social class (Eta) during the period of time we're talking about?

Nope. The notion that an entire region is full of a single social class like the eta is pretty inane.

My understanding is that Japanese still honor/worship the Samurai cult or culture in the way depicted by Japanese pilots during WWII who actually carried their Samurai swords into the cockpit with them but don't really recognize/honor the arts of Ninjutsu. The University of Tokyo teaches Bushido or the Samurai arts without references to Ninjutsu which was part of the oldest Ryu. Never set foot in Japan or attended the University. But, if the above is in the least true, how would it (Ryu without Ninjutsu) be explained?

Couldn't tell you. Personally, the whole account sounds like hearsay to me.

Laterz.

 

[sojobow]

*chuckle* That's pretty funny, considering "ninja" and "shinobi" are different pronounciations for the same kanji.

Thanks. I pretty much have the information need. Learned a lot. Expressed another way, what I was trying to understand is basically:

If the "Ninja" is represented by a single circle and the Eta is represented by a second circle, would the two circles be mutually exclusive or would the circles overlap to any degree. I took a number of kanji symbols to a Japanese family I know. What was interesting was that I received 3 different explanations: one from dad, one from mom and one for the older son. Translating the Kanji to English was actually fun to them after they stopped arguing.

 

[Don Roley]

I took a number of kanji symbols to a Japanese family I know. What was interesting was that I received 3 different explanations: one from dad, one from mom and one for the older son. Translating the Kanji to English was actually fun to them after they stopped arguing.

I doubt this happend. As with most things you write, it goes against what I know to be true and you will never give someone a way to double check on their own if it is true or not with an independent source.

 

[Elizium]

Don


Do you think he has gotten the kanji written wrong as to make this happen?

As kanji can be placed in a different manner to the word, it could also be written in a similar way but says another world altogether.

 

[heretic888]

If the "Ninja" is represented by a single circle and the Eta is represented by a second circle, would the two circles be mutually exclusive or would the circles overlap to any degree.

Dude, they weren't eta. Get over it.