Confused

[Yama Arashi]

Why don't you go ask him yourself?

And after all that he went through, why does it seem that when Takamatsu taught Hatsumi there wasn't that much sparring as far as I can tell? And the times I can remember stories close to sparring from Takamatsu's life they don't sound like part of training, but rather challenge matches. In one of them, Takamatsu lost his hearing in one ear. If you count that as sparring, then I don't think that many people who claim to do sparring match his standards. Unless you engage in sparring where someone can be permenently maimed, you are just LARPing it I guess.

Hatsumi used to do a few things very differently. I have had conversations with one of his students that was there from the beggining and he said that a lot of stuff was taken from his judo days and things got better after he got sick and could not rely on strength anymore.

I have heard from another Japanese who said that in the early days Hatsumi had sparring, but dropped it when some of the foriegn students started developing bad habits. The people who used to train with sparring used to only be those who had perfect taijutsu and they did so under the eyes of Hatsumi. Those from overseas started developing habits more suited to winning in the ring than on the street.

FYI, there is a bit of stress training and dealing with ukes that seek to counter me in my dojo in Japan. But there is no competition, there is no taking note of who "wins" in a drill.

Instead of joining up here and heading straight to the ninja forums to tell us how our training sucks, maybe you should have done some more research into the way training is done- like maybe set foot in a real dojo.

You might find that there are more ways up the mountain than you thought and it is only your limited experience that makes you think what you do.

Thanks for the insight. I think people are misunderstanding what I am saying, but that is okay I guess. LARPing it is running around in Tabi claiming to be too deadly to even engage in friendly sparring proving your skills and your techniques work without pulling a knife or throwing sand. If your defense is I wouldn't limit myself in a fight - take away your hidden knives and sand eggs you are nothing, I hope that is not what you are saying. Can't you have friendly nonkilling techniques to just test how well your taijutsu is? Maybe not.
How did the Japanese students get perfect Taijutsu? So Hatsumi watered down the fighting so people from overseas would understand. How can we ever hope to catch up going half the speed? I'm getting a lot of flak for not being a practioner, but I know of a 3rd Dan who left the Bujinkan cause he also felt it was going in the wrong direction. He was told by Dale here among others he just didn't understand what the Bujinkan was about. 3rd Dan and still no understanding? He's doing Judo/BJJ now. I will take his word at face value. He had to do Taijutsu for 6 years before he said, "Hey this isn't right!" Waste my time no thank you. I want to stop in and check out a Bujinkan dojo like hell, I can't they are too far away from where I live. I was suppose to get a job in the cities and was going to inroll at the Bujinkan Dojo there but the job fell through. Special thank to the people still being polite dispite the fact I may have angered you, you know who you are.

 

[Yama Arashi]

Dispite all my rants, I will take Taijutsu cause I will never be happy until I do. I either have to seek out a really good Bujinkan dojo with good concepts and application or learn by means the other X-kan. Is anyone here part of the other X-kans? Opinions? Thank you.
Peace

 

[Yama Arashi]

"You might find that there are more ways up the mountain than you thought and it is only your limited experience that makes you think what you do."

The same can be said when people from the Bujinkan compare their art to others. I see some people like to take popshots at the MMA community. Try imposing your will on a sport fighter and maybe he would pull a knife on you or dominate since he's not restricted by rules either on this so called "the street". Dale has refuted the "you fight how you train" so saying an MMA fighter would fight just like in the ring is dead wrong.

If everyone doesn't like what I am saying just ask me to leave and I will. That's a true Taijutsu - Be nice! Please use your Benevolent Heart guys. That is after all what Hatsumi said, and yes out of a book.

 

[Don Roley]

LARPing it is running around in Tabi claiming to be too deadly to even engage in friendly sparring proving your skills and your techniques work without pulling a knife or throwing sand. If your defense is I wouldn't limit myself in a fight - take away your hidden knives and sand eggs you are nothing, I hope that is not what you are saying.

No, I am afraid you still don't understand. Maybe if you took a more open minded approach to the subject instead of declaring that training you are not familiar with does not past muster.

The LARP (live action role play) refers to the idea that if you think that the ring or sparring is reality, you are living in a fantasy world. I personally do not train in ancient garb like you try to portray us, but I do acknowledge that people will fight dirty and they will use weapons. As I pointed out, in one of the "sparring" matches Takamatsu was in, his opponent took out his hearing in one ear in a move that I suppose would not be allowed in any sparring or competition. So, if you are not taking that sort of risk, then I guess you are living in a live action role playing game instead of anything real.

And no training is real combat. Period. Bob Orlando has a great quote that all training is a simulation of training. The key word is simulation. If you get used to a simulation, then you are no longer training for reality. If you take different angles on the problem, then you have a better chance of dealing with more aspects of a real fight, but nothing on its own can be a 100 percent accurate simulation of combat.

After years of dealing with rules that prevent a guy from going for your throat or pulling out a knife, are you seriously going to think that you will develop good habits for those situations? I have tons of stories from folks like John Farnham (not a ninjutsu or martial arts teacher- combat handgun) about how people who train with a heavy competition based outlook develop habits that are good for that competition, but bad for reality. Without people doing things to them that fall outside the rules, they lose the ability to deal with anything not allowed in the competition. Some folks that spar do other things like half speed sparring, sparring while wearing protective goggles to let eye strikes be a factor and things like that. But the guys who trumpet sparring the most and seem to think that the UFC is real never seem to do that. If they spent time training in things that fall outside of their rules, they would lose to someone who spent the same amount of time training, but who specialized in just what they needed to win.

The question should be what you try to get out of sparring as a positive attribute and see if there are other ways of getting those attributes.

How about you give one guy a knife and have a student try to survive an attack by him while the teacher watches and corrects bad habits? That could not be a sporting competition, and it would be called randori in the Bujinkan. Is there something in that type of training that could not be found in two guys battling over a trophy? And could there be things that are better in that type of training than the sporting event? And of course you could add in additional people, scenarios for getting away as a goal, hidden weapons, legal situations and things like that. But not in competition.

And what about risk? The only account I can recall of a time when Hatsumi talked about something that was not a set drill with Takamatsu was when Takamatsu grabbed a real sword and attacked Hatsumi with it. I am sure that Takamatsu held back. But if you have not faced a real weapon in training with the very real risk of injury, then you can't know what true pressure is. But because of the risk and unfairness of it all, it could not be part of competitive sparring. And the fact that Takamatsu probably held back would discount the training in your eyes. But to be able to pull off something like that while under pressure of death is something that could really hone your skills.

You might want to read the book "On Killing" by Grossman. The part of the brain that deals with skills you use under threat of death is different than the part that you deal with when dealing with something like sparring. If you do not train under a situation where you could die if you fail, then those skills probably will not be there when it is a deadly situation.

But I doubt anyone in North America that was even slightly commercial could pull this type of training off. I think I have a DVD lent out that has me defending against a rokushakubo in a drill. It is a set drill. But the speed that the teacher built up to and the force behind the blows was such that if I had not done the technique to defend it perfectly, I possibly would have gotten my head caved in and died. So I am not really impressed with arguments about how you need the pressure of competition to be a good martial artist.

Of course, there are ways of fooling the part of the brain into thinking it is a life and death situation, but not through sparring like you see in most martial arts. You ask anyone who went through the confidence course in the military and had an M60 machine gun fire tracers over their head and they will tell you that on one level they knew that they were set at 5 feet and thus they were safe, but after the drill instructors and such got through with them, they were scared that they were going to die if they did not get down as low as possible. It was at that point in my life that I finally understood the Bill Maudlin line, "I can't get any lower- my buttons are in the way!"

Not everyone in the Bujinkan trains like I do. You can see my rants about people that will only show up to training with Hatsumi. Hatsumi teaches the skills that only he can pass on. The drilling of the skills goes on elsewhere- or at elast should IMO. I would bet that those that have any sort of commercial bent do not get close to the level of danger I have faced with weapon training. Many probably don't do the randori I talked about. But the training is there if you want it and are willing to do a little work.

 

[Dale Seago]

Dale has refuted the "you fight how you train" so saying an MMA fighter would fight just like in the ring is dead wrong.

I hear my name when it is spoken in shadows, wherefore I have returned.

(So okay, it's a cheesy reference to a Jack Vance character. So sue me.)

For an overview of just perzackly what I've actually been saying recently:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=886077#post886077

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=886887#post886887

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=887422#post887422

In the second link, BTW, the reason I said "As I said, it's a matter of how you define the term. A lot of people probably would classify at least some of what we do in my dojo as "sparring" (though I don't think of it that way myself); but if so then please, PLEASE don't let the people at Bullshido know that we sometimes spar, I'll never live it down" is because of this thread: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35223

Idiots don't have the faintest clue what I'm talking about or showing despite my description regarding the photo. . .

 

[malenko]

Poor kid, why did have to unleash Mr. Roley on him.

 

[saru1968]

Poor kid, why did have to unleash Mr. Roley on him.

err...read his posts!

being a friend of Virus(bullshido, the 3rd Dan that left the Bujinkan and an ex student of Wayne Roy(virus) I believe) does not help matters.

 

[MJS]

"You might find that there are more ways up the mountain than you thought and it is only your limited experience that makes you think what you do."

The same can be said when people from the Bujinkan compare their art to others. I see some people like to take popshots at the MMA community. Try imposing your will on a sport fighter and maybe he would pull a knife on you or dominate since he's not restricted by rules either on this so called "the street". Dale has refuted the "you fight how you train" so saying an MMA fighter would fight just like in the ring is dead wrong.

If everyone doesn't like what I am saying just ask me to leave and I will. That's a true Taijutsu - Be nice! Please use your Benevolent Heart guys. That is after all what Hatsumi said, and yes out of a book.

I don't think that anyone is asking you to leave. One thing that I do find interesting, is that we often see people, with a limited understanding of an art, assume that there are certain things that are lacking, because of the 'research' that they did. That 'research' usually consists of watching a video clip and basing an opinion off of that. I do not study BBT myself, but I do see the very same things in the arts that I study.

In closing I'll just say two last things.

1) I think that to get the best idea as to what an art is all about, would be to find a qualified instructor to show the fine points of the art. I highly doubt that what is shown in a video clip is the end all, be all of what BBT is really all about.

2) I realize that this is a touchy issue and certianly one thats ongoing, but it may be a good idea to take a second look at post #19.

Mike

 

[Yama Arashi]

Don you've been very helpful. And the way you train seems fine by me, it just seems like some Dojos don't train like you at all.

You ask anyone who went through the confidence course in the military and had an M60 machine gun fire tracers over their head and they will tell you that on one level they knew that they were set at 5 feet and thus they were safe, but after the drill instructors and such got through with them, they were scared that they were going to die if they did not get down as low as possible. It was at that point in my life that I finally understood the Bill Maudlin line, "I can't get any lower- my buttons are in the way!" - Don

I was one of those guys (Fort Knox 2002 Charlie Co 5th Platoon), but my frame of mind was more of "This is fun."

I already realize that you can't train certain moves with safety, it's just not possible. Like you said frame of mind has a rather large factor on your training.

I would just like to tell you a little story. Now I only know this story cause I am a Judo guy, I am in no way comparing Taijutsu to Judo. I know already on is sport one is combat. Speaking of which you don't have to tell me the difference. I already know MMA ring is not real fighting like say in a bar or in a back alley way. Aways on to the story.

When Kano developed his Judo out of Jujutsu he wanted to test it. He went to the local police department (who did Jujutsu but only Kata, semi-resisting Uke, and fixed drills) and challeged them to battle his students. I know no ones life was on the line but you were going to get your face beat in petty hard. This is the old Bushi style Jujutsu with all the chokes, kicks, locks, and punches here. Anyhow to make a long story short Kano's students destroyed the Police Jujutsu practioners. The moral of the story is because Kano's students trained at full speed with resisting Ukes beating the snot out of eachother daily they knew what they were to expect when battling a real person.

Now I know that not all BJK train like this, Thanks Don, but from what I gather some still do.

 

[Kreth]

Don you've been very helpful. And the way you train seems fine by me, it just seems like some Dojos don't train like you at all.

Perhaps you would have received a better response sooner if your posting style wasn't (paraphrased): "Your training sucks, tell me why I should do it..."

 

[Yama Arashi]

Perhaps you would have received a better response sooner if your posting style wasn't (paraphrased): "Your training sucks, tell me why I should do it..."

I wasplaying devils advocate. I think Taijutsu Techniques rock, but aren't trained right. I wanted to see who could still be nice when under fire and who would be dicks from the start. Asked and Answered.

Question: Isn't Ninjutsu Mixed Martial Art Hybrid considering it's a mix of 9 different Ryu. Mostly Bushi/Samurai Jujutsu?

Be nice and follow Rule two of the Nine Rules of the Gyokko Ryu
"[FONT=&quot]Forget self, be patient"
Come on I just some ignorant guy struggling to grasp why some Dojos can't practice even a few techniques at full speed. For those of you who do Congrads!
[/FONT]

 

[Kreth]

I wasplaying devils advocate. I think Taijutsu Techniques rock, but aren't trained right.

And again, you have no basis for this statement, having never trained in a Bujinkan dojo.

I wanted to see who could still be nice when under fire and who would be dicks from the start. Asked and Answered.

In other words, you deliberately provoked people. That's known as trolling.

Question: Isn't Ninjutsu Mixed Martial Art Hybrid considering it's a mix of 9 different Ryu. Mostly Bushi/Samurai Jujutsu?

The Bujinkan could be considered a hybrid art, yes. Ninjutsu is ninjutsu.

Be nice and follow Rule two of the Nine Rules of the Gyokko Ryu
"

[FONT=&quot]Forget self, be patient"

[/FONT]
I'll have to look through my books for a quote along the lines of "Don't troll the ninjutsu forums and get offended when you get flamed back."
[FONT=&quot]

Come on I just some ignorant guy struggling to grasp why some Dojos can't practice even a few techniques at full speed. For those of you who do Congrads!

[/FONT]

How apt of you to use that word...

 

[Yama Arashi]

Thanks, I'm done here. Sorry, don't know the forum lingo like troll and such. This is my first time on forums and probably my last since I'm going to get kicked off. ** Content removed to comply with sniping policy ** I don't need to train Tae Kwon Do to know its ineffective. My argument is just as flawed as yours. ** Content removed to comply with hate speech policy **

Peace

 

[Bigshadow]

Over already? I didn't get finished with my popcorn. opcorn:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ahhh, finally done. Kreth you can lock this thread anytime.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[heretic888]

Did I call's 'em or did I call's em??

 

[Kreth]

Thread closed pending review.