English in the US

[Empty Hands]

Ah but I know a lot more about assimilation than you imagine, I'm only a first generation Brit.

No doubt, but I was making a more general point, I wasn't trying to say anything in particular about the UK. I'm well aware of the contentious history underlying the whole concept of "United Kingdom", as well as current tensions from Asian (your usage of the term) and Muslim immigrants.

 

[Tez3]

Yep I was trying to stir things up a bit but more in the direction of getting away from people having a go at each other. Just to slightly change the topic a bit to make it less personal or more throw things at the cheeky brit rofl?

 

[michaeledward]

Tez asked why most of us view the term "socialist" or "liberal" as dirty words. I explained to the best of my ability. That was all. You are off on some whoooooooole other planet.

The terms socialist and liberal are not dirty words in America because of a couple of wars that ended decades before you were born.

They are dirty words because Frank Luntz said they were. That was spun through the Rush Limbaughs, the Bill O'Reilly's, the Fox News Channels, the Cato Institute, the Laura Ingraham's, the Michael Savage's, Ronald Reagan, the lobbyists for the Healthcare and Pharmacuetical industries, the Newt Gingrich's, Regendy Publishing and many other outlets until our fellow citizens were so afraid of 'liberals' and 'socialists' that they gave up reason.

 

[Tez3]

No doubt, but I was making a more general point, I wasn't trying to say anything in particular about the UK. I'm well aware of the contentious history underlying the whole concept of "United Kingdom", as well as current tensions from Asian (your usage of the term) and Muslim immigrants.

I didn't use the word Asian nor Muslim. The tension at the moment actually in this country is about the Romas and the old Eastern Bloc immigrants coiming into the country, mostly illegally.

 

[MBuzzy]

I think we may need another thread to discuss the idea of socialism as a term and its lack of shared meaning. I woudl definately have a lot to add on that.

But back to the topic....To me, it is simple. When I go to other countries, if I can't communicate with them, because I don't know enough of the language, they smile politely and shake their head. If I can't find someone to translate, I'm SOL. And can anyone tell me what would happen if I would have tried to file a lawsuit in Korea because they didn't speak English?

I respect other countries enough to learn enough of their language to get by while I'm there. If I had moved there for an extended period of time, I would respect their culture enough to learn it fluently.

But, the immigrants here DO NOT respect us enough to learn our language and instead expect us to learn theirs - and are usually fairly indignant about it. If they fail to respect us, I will fail to respect them.

 

[Empty Hands]

I didn't use the word Asian nor Muslim. The tension at the moment actually in this country is about the Romas and the old Eastern Bloc immigrants coiming into the country, mostly illegally.

No, I know, I was bringing both those up to add to your point about tensions in the UK. I know you didn't mention them.

 

[Empty Hands]

But, the immigrants here DO NOT respect us enough to learn our language and instead expect us to learn theirs - and are usually fairly indignant about it. If they fail to respect us, I will fail to respect them.

As I mentioned upthread, American expats as a group are just as bad. It's not a Korean thing or an American thing, it's a human thing.

 

[Cryozombie]

Much the same way no one can look at a swastika anymore and ever see it for anything but a Nazi symbol despite it being at least one Native American tribe's symbol as well, or that it was in Teutonic mythology as one of Thor's weapons. Such was the impact they had. like it or not.

Or a wheel of life symbol in Japan...

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Good call. Forgot that one.

 

[Tez3]

No, I know, I was bringing both those up to add to your point about tensions in the UK. I know you didn't mention them.

Those particular tensions are old ones we have been used to since the days of the old Empire (when things were handled badly) though they may have been upped a little by the current war. Asian and Muslim immigrants aren't nearly as numerous as you may think. Many came from Uganda not Asia when Idi Amin expelled all non Africans. He kept their businesses and assets though.
The real tensions are in towns like Dover (the white cliffs of) on the south coast. They are under siege from immigrants coming across the channel from Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkans etc.they are coming in illegally and flooding the towns which are finding it increasingly difficult to cope. For most part they are not looking to work, nor learn English. If they do work it's illegally. Kent police have asked for more money to cope with a rise in crime. Begging on the street quite often with menaces has become an everyday hazard to avoid.
There is also increasing number of what they like to call economic refugees coming from Afghanistan, Sudan and other war torn and poor countries.

 

[Tez3]

Or a wheel of life symbol in Japan...

When it's facing the other way it's Indian.

 

[Cruentus]

No doubt, the owner of Geno's feels that he does have such a 'right'.

A member of the community of Philadelphia, apparently, disagrees.

Philadelphia has an ordinance (that would be a law) that prohibits discrimination in employment, public accomodation, and housing on the basis of race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation.

Someone in the community apparently feels that the policy of Mr. Vento is discriminatory in "public accomodation" based on "ethnicity".

What is the correct venue for this disagreement to be settled?

On the streets, fisticuffs style would be the best way to settle it.

Well, court is probably the place it should be settled. But the fact that someone would waste their time and $$ sueing someone else over a sign simply demonstrates where we have gone in this country with certain things. Since when is it anyone's right (where one would in their right mind even think it would be enough to take it to court) to try to bully someone else over what that person can have displayed in their place of business or home?

That leaves this question: is the sign discriminatory on the basis of race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation? I think that requiring that a person speak a certain language (although kind of dumb) is not discriminatory on the basis of any of those things.

 

[Tez3]

The only sure thing is.... it's good being a lawyer!

 

[michaeledward]

On the streets, fisticuffs style would be the best way to settle it.

Well, court is probably the place it should be settled.

OK. So it is a silly lawsuit. But the courts are "probably" the place where the disagreement should be settled.

If we are in agreement on this, I see only one question remaining, which begs to be answered ....

Why on Earth is this silly little lawsuit, being addressed in the correct venue, receiving publicity and public comment on television and radio in our country today?

Cui Bono?

 

[Cruentus]

OK. So it is a silly lawsuit. But the courts are "probably" the place where the disagreement should be settled.

If we are in agreement on this, I see only one question remaining, which begs to be answered ....

Why on Earth is this silly little lawsuit, being addressed in the correct venue, receiving publicity and public comment on television and radio in our country today?

Cui Bono?

We are in agreement on court being the correct venue. However, it is silly because someone would have the audacity to take someone to court over this in the 1st place. Why not just boycott the place, or send a letter to the editor or two and give him a little bad press, or just let the sign speak for itself as to what kind of establishment the place is? For a person to have the audacity to think that his opinion of someone elses sign should be enforced through the legal system seems so ridicules to me.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have a question that may or may not be relevant to the subject at hand. Is English the legal official language of the United States? I was under the impression that it was not. Down here it is the nation's official language, so all immigrants have to have a certain degree of fluency to earn their papers. Of course it has been massively circumvented in recent years by refugee immigration, particularly from Asia.

My point in asking is that if English is not an official language the sign could easily be discriminatory. Of course once in court the commonlaw position that the language has should see the case dropped, but it probably won't be. Much more likely is a settlement that will see the business go under because of mental trauma and cultural distress.

 

[michaeledward]

We are in agreement on court being the correct venue. However, it is silly because someone would have the audacity to take someone to court over this in the 1st place. Why not just boycott the place, or send a letter to the editor or two and give him a little bad press, or just let the sign speak for itself as to what kind of establishment the place is? For a person to have the audacity to think that his opinion of someone elses sign should be enforced through the legal system seems so ridicules to me.

I will quote for you the First Amendement to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Are you suggesting that a person give away his First Amendment Right to petition the government for a redress of grievances because you believe the lawsuit is "silly"?

And, we still haven't address the idea of 'Who Benefits' by this being in the media. Cui Bono?

 

[MJS]

I still find it interesting why people think that its wrong to ask someone who is living in a country where the native language is English, to learn some basic English skills. I mean really, we give free medical service to people who can't afford it, so I'm sure there're free language classes. Why are people not taking advantage of them?

 

[crushing]

What congressional law was passed that created the grievance that the lawsuit is petitioning to redress?

Who benefits? If the media and their friends can effectively turn it into "them v. brown people" or outright call those that would like a 'common business communication standard' racists, then it would appear the real wedge people benefit.

 

[michaeledward]

I still find it interesting why people think that its wrong to ask someone who is living in a country where the native language is English, to learn some basic English skills. I mean really, we give free medical service to people who can't afford it, so I'm sure there're free language classes. Why are people not taking advantage of them?

Michael,

Who are you describing?
Who thinks it is wrong?