English in the US

[jks9199]

I don't believe I called anyone who posts on this board a racist. Perhaps you could find I did, and point that out to me.

I said that this issue ... the lawsuit and its propagation on Bill O'Reilly and Michael Smirconishs' radio programs, ... is being using as tool to separate "The Other".

The accusation I did make, is that some people are willing to blindly accept what bile is fed to them through Oceania's Ministry of Truth; just as was done in 1930's Germany, or more recently in fiction in the movie 'V for Vendetta'.

Should the resturant owner be exempt from local laws?

And, really, people, we are talking about ordering lunch. We are not talking about prescription medication, police reports, or legal documents. This lawsuit is about ~ literally ~ a ham sandwich; (with provolone (is that English?))

So, let me see if I've got this straight.

Because I, in my personal experience involving many high stress contacts with people of a variety of language backgrounds, as well as my routine day to day contacts with many of those same people, find it rather frustrating that I have had to use a foreign language to communicate with people in my home nation and community, and because I felt that it was stupidthat a complaint alleging that a business owner who posted a sign that English use was the preference in his business (which you too agreed really had no merit) actually went forward, and I guess because I disagree with you... You've decided that I've blindly accepted whatever is being fed through the media?

Please, what local law did the business owner violate? He's accused of violating an anti-discrimination code, but this is the first case that I'm aware of where language was an alleged basis for discrimination. From the scant information here, it's not even clear if he ever actually refused anyone service because they didn't speak English! We have a college professor (here is her bio at the school) alleging that a sign, again apparently without any evidence of actual implementation and definitely without the support of laws, is the same as the Jim Crow laws! That's almost as much a reach as your implications that those of us who feel that if you're here -- you should make reasonable efforts to learn English are being manipulated by Bill O'Reilly or anyone else, and are blindly accepting whatever is being sent down the media (which does tend to have a rather more liberal bias, in my experience, and certainly doesn't fear to challenge press releases and statements rom the federal or state government, especially under the current Presidential administration).

The issue at hand, reading the original post, is this:

Here's the thing, no thinking person gives a damn if you speak Swahili, Urdu, Farsi, or Pig Latin in your home or among your friends. However, if you choose to do business in this country, even as only a consumer, you should speak and read English fluently. Because that is what we do here.

And I'll stand by all my statements here; I don't understand why anyone chooses (and I most definitely have encountered people who made deliberate choices NOT to learn English or encourage their kids to learn English) not to learn enough English to function. I think it's perfectly reasonable for any business to expect that customers would be able to deal with them in English, not have to provide a translator.

Is that really such a bizarre expectation?

 

[Kacey]

I don't believe I called anyone who posts on this board a racist. Perhaps you could find I did, and point that out to me.

I said that this issue ... the lawsuit and its propagation on Bill O'Reilly and Michael Smirconishs' radio programs, ... is being using as tool to separate "The Other".

The accusation I did make, is that some people are willing to blindly accept what bile is fed to them through Oceania's Ministry of Truth; just as was done in 1930's Germany, or more recently in fiction in the movie 'V for Vendetta'.

Should the resturant owner be exempt from local laws?

And, really, people, we are talking about ordering lunch. We are not talking about prescription medication, police reports, or legal documents. This lawsuit is about ~ literally ~ a ham sandwich; (with provolone (is that English?))

So... I can sue the owner of the Chipotle I ate at recently where none of the staff taking orders spoke English? After all, I don't speak Spanish - and the only reason I spoke to the owner was to complain that my order - given in English - was completed incorrectly because the employee could not understand me.

The owner's answer to my complaint: I should learn to speak Spanish, because the only applications he had for positions in his Mexican-themed restaurant were from people who don't speak English, so he had to hire what he could get - and the customers should learn enough Spanish to order from them; he was trying to get them to learn English but they stated clearly that they saw no reason to learn English, so the best he could offer was a list of Spanish translations of menu items - and no, he did not see any reason to refund or replace my incorrectly-prepared meal.

You may rest assured that I will not be returning to that particular establishment - not because I'm racist, but because I see no reason to frequent a restaurant where my order is filled incorrectly because the employees do not understand me when I am speaking the dominant language of the country, and where the owner sees that as a problem on my part rather than on his staff's abilities.

And as you type your response, please remember that this is exactly the same situation, simply from the other side. As far your statement that "We are not talking about prescription medication, police reports, or legal documents." - well, perhaps we should be. The attitude demonstrated by my recent experience - that there is no reason to learn English simply because one lives in an English-speaking country - leads to serious problems, such as patients who neither speak nor read English, who overdose on medication which should be taken once daily, because they confuse the English word "once" (meaning "one time") with the Spanish word "once" (meaning 11). But hey... it's a simple mistake, just like the error in my meal. Sadly, the consequences of such simple mistakes can be deadly... and that includes mistakes in food preparation; I know far too many people who are deathly allergic to edible items commonly sold in restaurants, including a child who died of an allergic reaction to butter (violent allergy to milk products) - his mother ordered his oatmeal without butter, but the employee misheard or misunderstood (never got a straight answer on that one, even when it went to court) and served the boy oatmeal from a prepared pot that included butter... but hey, it was just a meal, nothing important.

 

[michaeledward]

Kacey, you can sue anyone you wish. That's the way it works in our country. The guy who owns the resturant, he can be a jerk if he wants to. But legally, he is accused of violating Philadelphia's Fair Practices Ordinance. Did he violate the city rules ... who knows.

The fact is ... these types of disagreements ARE settled in the courts in this country. The process is working exactly as it is designed to work.

But, if people can use this silly little, local dispute, to put a bad spin on 'those people' ~ in this case, 'those people' are assumed to be non-English speaking ~ the unspoken accusation, the code words, the dog whistles are that those who won't or can't place their orders in English are "Illegal", "Crimaliens".

This issue is getting traction because people want to use it as a wedge issue. The way societies have always separated 'us' from 'them'. It is an ugly, ugly issue. It is a very sad behavior, and it speaks poorly about our country.

And, maybe it is not just an 'us' and 'them' wedge, but it is also the carnival barker trying to distract us from those things that are much more serious; such as our health care, the value of the dollar, and the world market's decision to move away from the dollar and toward the Euro.

Bread and Circuses.

 

[Kacey]

Ah, I see you totally missed my point... but then, you appear to be interested only in the point you wish to make; no one else's opinion appears to matter to you.

I have no desire to sue anyone; I was attempting to point out that the issue goes both ways... and I find the sue-happy nature of many people in this country to be repugnant - I would much rather earn my money honestly.

I notice that you did not respond to the parts of my statement that addressed yours directly: the concerns with errors in medication, and the death a child, both due to language problems. Or perhaps you don't have an answer, and that's why you did not respond to those portions... well, you wouldn't be the only person who doesn't have an answer for those issues - both of which are part and parcel of a larger issue, which includes the one which started this thread, the issue of whether or not people living in this country should learn to speak English.

 

[Big Don]

http://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/us-citizenship-application-form/#specificReq

Additional Requirements:

1. Demonstrating that you have good moral character;
2. Demonstrating knowledge of U.S, government and history (civics);
3. Demonstrating attachment to the U.S. by taking an oath of allegiance to the U.S. Constitution;
4. A period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States;
5. Residence in a particular state or district prior to filing; and
6. An ability to read, write, and speak English.

Forgetting for the moment that you, Michael Edward, are the only one to bring up illegal immigrants in this discussion, One of the requirements for a foreign national to become a citizen, is as you can see above "An ability to read, write, and speak English" Why is that included? Perhaps because even most fools can see (Obviously at least one cannot) that when everyone can understand each other it is easier for everyone to get along.

 

[MBuzzy]

Let me add what I feel to be an important point to this topic. A point which was CONVENIENTLY left out of the news report (not the fault of the OP at all), this is a major contextual issue that everyone seems to fail to see.

Geno's Steaks and Pat's King of Steaks are directly across the street from each other (actually, across the point, as the two are at an intersection of diagonal streets). They are generally accepted to be the "Home" and "Birthplace" of Philly Cheese steaks. They are both open 24 hours a day and trust me....I've been there at ALL hours. The lines go around the block at most times. Both of these businesses base their cash flow on customers ordering quickly and moving out of the way. They are literally the ORIGINAL soup nazis. In fact, they both have rules posted on HOW to order. They specifically state that you will have you MONEY READY, know your order, and state it in a specific order and way. Pat's used to have the rules on their website, but the site is down for construction. Geno's still has it as a blurb at the bottom. http://www.genosteaks.com/about.html
I have PERSONALLY been refused service because I didn't follow the rules. I was of course intoxicated at the time and was sent to the end of the line. That's just how it is there. If you don't like it, don't go there, they've been doing it that way for years.

SO, this sign was up there (I've seen the sign) to facilitate FAST ordering. To get people in and out and keep the line moving. What the site says is true....no sooner is your money taken than your order is being put out the next window....it is BY FAR the fastest and most efficent service I have EVER had. BUT, both places have not built their reputations on customer service or being nice. The workers are short, abrupt, and sometimes mean. They don't want small talk, they don't want anything that takes more time than "Provoline, with" and that is LITERALLY an order for a regular cheese steaks with provolone cheese and onions. If you want fries, you tell them at the next window. Drink, same thing.

So personally.......I think that the whole thing is being WAY blown out of proportion (in the case cited), the sign was there because that is how the place does business!

Now.....that was a bit off topic, because I do still think that the topic at hand is very important. I do believe that people in this country should learn the language.

I have traveled extensively to many foreign countries. Luckily, most of the countries I've been to have spoken basic english, because it is taught in all of their schools. But let me tell you - you have never seen such delight on an OLD Korean's face as when you make the attempt to speak to them in their own language. They truly appreciate it.

American's simply expect and demand it. Of course, other countries are totally different situations....Korea, Germany, Kuwait, etc aren't the melting pot that this country is. The majority of the population is native speakers. But if you don't speak the language and they don't speak english, you're SOL and they really don't have a lot of sympathy! America is made up of different cultures. Most of which have LEARNED the language, just as my great great great grandparents did and probably most of yours.

 

[MJS]

The owner's answer to my complaint: I should learn to speak Spanish, because the only applications he had for positions in his Mexican-themed restaurant were from people who don't speak English, so he had to hire what he could get - and the customers should learn enough Spanish to order from them; he was trying to get them to learn English but they stated clearly that they saw no reason to learn English, so the best he could offer was a list of Spanish translations of menu items - and no, he did not see any reason to refund or replace my incorrectly-prepared meal.

And my asnwer to him would have been, "Well, regardless of that fact, this is a Mexican restaurant in America, so perhaps the workers should learn enough English to communicate with non-Spansih speaking customers.!" Then I would have gotten up, and left! Sorry, if I am supposed to learn enough Spanish, they can learn enough English.

Now, had I been dining in Mexico, sure, I could justify the situation you mention. As I said in an earlier post, if I were to visit a foreign country, I'd do my best to learn some basics.

 

[Jade Tigress]

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[punisher73]

This is just a part of the wedge issue that doesn't like brown people

I actually view this in the exact opposite. I feel that those who wish all people LIVING (as opposed to someone on vacation) in this country want them to be able to succeed on their own. If they are taught spanish in schools so "they can learn" and then give them a high school diploma have we helped them to succeed? NO, we haven't the job of school is to educate and prepare people to go out on their own and get a job or if they chose to get more education for a job.

If you allow them to never learn english they will always be relagated to "second class" citizenship and jobs. This is not an issue of them not being hard working or intelligent, do you think a fortune 500 company is going to hire them if they can't communicate in english to their fellow coworkers or employees? NOPE, not gonna happen!

There is a push for all things in the US being bi-lingual. Why? Again, you are actually seperating them from the vast majority of the country and making it so they HAVE to rely on the government to help them out.

My Great-grandfather came over from Greece and married a German woman. Our family was disowned because greeks are so ethnocentric and could not believe he didn't marrry a pure blood greek woman. He came to his country because he wanted to come to a better place and had a rule that "We are Americans now, we will speak english and learn to be american". He did not allow greek to be spoken outside of the home and learned the language.

If I moved to another country, I would learn the language. I wouldn't expect them to learn mine just so I could feel more at home.

 

[michaeledward]

I notice that you did not respond to the parts of my statement that addressed yours directly: the concerns with errors in medication, and the death a child, both due to language problems. Or perhaps you don't have an answer, and that's why you did not respond to those portions... well, you wouldn't be the only person who doesn't have an answer for those issues - both of which are part and parcel of a larger issue, which includes the one which started this thread, the issue of whether or not people living in this country should learn to speak English.

Kacey, I do not believe that medicine and emergency services are "part and parcel of a larger issue" ... And I don't really see a need, in this instance, to expand from the issue at hand. In fact, doing so, I think is counter productive to the point I wish to make.

This is a silly little lawsuit. It should be receive zero attention from everyone.

If, as MBuzzy indicates, Geno's Steak House is a tourist attraction ~ if it is renouned as the "original Soup Nazi's", then maybe visitors to the City of Brotherly Love (where they only love those who speak English, apparently) would want to visit. But, I guess we don't like visitors from other countries any more. I guess the reputation we have earned, most recently from Canada, that we are not a "safe" country to visit has merit.

The United States of America does not have an official language; regardless of the requirements for Naturalized citizens. There are no laws dictating that we are a nation that speaks English. Does this create problems, sure. But, this lawsuit is not one of those problems.

To me, this lawsuit, and the oxygen it is sucking out of the national media, is like the marriage amendments during the last election cycle. It is designed to scare people into action; "Every body be afraid of people who don't speak English". This lawsuit is silly, and petty. And I believe there are much bigger concerns to which we should all be giving our attention.

Now, Kacey, there are laws in our cities, states, and federal agencies that do mandate language concerns; such as courtrooms needing to provide translators to accused persons. The existance of these laws certainly do create burdens on communities. One way to counter those burdens is to establish an official language. But, we haven't done that yet. That can be a part of a reasoned discussion. Attempting to claim this lawsuit is part of that reasonable discussion is ridiculous.

 

[Tez3]

An interesting discussion! A few things took me aback though, cheese and steak? That and it's true about Britain and American being divided by a common language! someone said they took offense which to me means they are going on the attack as I would have taken offence, to us the two words are different and using one or the other changes the meaning of the sentence.
I live in a tourist area and in the summer we get parties of Americans (why do they travel in packs btw I've noticed this in other countries too) and they have a tendancy to talk loudly and slowly at us as if we cannot understand what they are saying. Oh yes we get the quaint comment a lot lol! That and astonishment the police don't carry guns.
Am I right in thinking that historically parts of America could be thought of as not English speaking? the parts originally populated by French and Spanish people? what is the language of Hawaii? I know us Brits didn't colonise all of the country!
As for the gingers ( pronounce this to rhyme with ringers! use a hard 'g') I'm afraid England is rather prone to pick on them. Not in Scotland though which is probably why the English pick on gingers!
A few years ago we invited an American fighter onto one of our shows, Skip Hall, lovely guy and his wife Sally. Ever since we have received a lovely letter from her every Christmas and a lot of it we don't understand purely because it's full of terms we don't understand. I don't mean customs etc I mean the use of words that we use to describe one thing and you use to describe something else. for example if something goes a bomb here it's a rousing success, to you it's the opposite! I think we overlook the fact that to us really America is a foreign country every bit as much as China or Japan. That's not an insult btw!
This is leading to the thought I had that many people have emigrated to America (and the UK) 'unwillingly', they may have had to leave to escape poverty, persecution whatever and still love their original country so are unwilling to let go of their language and customs.
I know the argument is that they are in an English speaking country now and should learn the language but many people regard this as a temporary only (even if it isn't) they long to go back to their 'old' country. This isn't an excuse but a rather tragic reason for many old folks not learning English.

 

[Kacey]

Now, Kacey, there are laws in our cities, states, and federal agencies that do mandate language concerns; such as courtrooms needing to provide translators to accused persons. The existance of these laws certainly do create burdens on communities. One way to counter those burdens is to establish an official language. But, we haven't done that yet. That can be a part of a reasoned discussion. Attempting to claim this lawsuit is part of that reasonable discussion is ridiculous.

You may think it is unreasonable, and on the face of it it may be - but until such time as people make an issue of it - and this lawsuit is doing just that - people will put up with it, because it's not worth the individual effort to most people. Without such lawsuits - and news stories about the medical and legal concerns - bringing this issue to the forefront so that it is in people's awareness, it will continue to be an issue. Only when enough people raise the issue, and assert their preferences, will the issue be resolved instead of discussed on the sidelines.

 

[jks9199]

The United States of America does not have an official language; regardless of the requirements for Naturalized citizens. There are no laws dictating that we are a nation that speaks English. Does this create problems, sure. But, this lawsuit is not one of those problems.
...
Now, Kacey, there are laws in our cities, states, and federal agencies that do mandate language concerns; such as courtrooms needing to provide translators to accused persons. The existance of these laws certainly do create burdens on communities. One way to counter those burdens is to establish an official language. But, we haven't done that yet. That can be a part of a reasoned discussion. Attempting to claim this lawsuit is part of that reasonable discussion is ridiculous.

There's quite a difference between providing and requiring certain translation services for court and some other government functions, and filing a discrimination complaint because a restaurant specifies that it's customers order in English. Even were we to declare a national language (not something I'm actually in favor of), we'd still have to provide many of those translation services in the interest of fundamental fairness.

But is it a really discriminatory for a business to specify the way it accepts orders? Won't the market likely determine and punish a practice like that if it truly drives customers away? Isn't the comparison between a single sign and business and the Jim Crow laws quite a stretch? I looked at the menu for the restaurant; all the English required to make a complete order there would be a total of 15 words (and the ability to count US money, something I find that immigrants - legal or otherwise - learn amazingly quickly), and I bet those words are posted on a menu.

You say that this particular case is insignificant, yet it's generated 4 or 5 pages on this thread, and counting. You suggest that it's being used to distract people for real issues... I disagree. I think that the issue, put into strong contrast by this case, of assimilation versus what I can only call occupation is a major issue and crisis for our nation. I grew up being taught about the "American Melting Pot", where immigrants become part of the US culture, but today, that doesn't happen. Instead, we see immigrants coming here, refusing to become part of our society and refusing to allow their children to assimilate, either. We no longer have a melting pot, or even a salad bowl... We're turning into a buffet line, with each immigrant culture remaining untouched by others, unless someone actively seeks to "put that culture on their plate." I've personally dealt with immigrants (legal and illegal) from several different countries who were shocked that they would be held to obey the same laws and common standards of behavior as native US residents! Because something is accepted and normal in their culture (whether it's spousal abuse, child abuse, 30 year old men dating 13 year old girls, or just things like only the head of the family being allowed to talk, and more...), they feel it should be OK here.

Language is a key issue; let's just look at the DMV issue. In some cases, they allow a person to bring their own translator, who is (in theory) reading the questions and answers, and letting the license applicant make the choice. But... there's NOTHING (or less than nothing) preventing someone from simply telling them which answer to choose. So, we hope that any deficiencies show up in the "road test", which is not even being done on the road in many cases anymore! I've personally encountered people who were amazed to learn of basic rules of the road, like yielding to pedestrians, or stopping for emergency vehicles! Again -- I'm not limiting this to Latinos. But, you say, this is "only" about ordering a meal in a restaurant. OK... How could could a language disconnect be a problem there? How about a food allergy? I used to work with a guy who was so sensitive to caffeine that a single cup of coffee would hospitalize him; peanut allergies are another issue. Kacey's experience at Chipotle is a great example of where this language barrier caused a problem.

Finally, I simply ask again WHY should those of us who were born and raised here, speaking English as the dominant (not exclusive or official) language of commerce and daily business, find ourselves having to defend the idea that people who come here to live and work should acquire basic functional competency in English? Why should we be compelled to adjust to a newcomer's native language in our own home towns?

 

[Ray]

The business of the gov't should be conducted in English. Ballots, bills, court orders, etc. No compulsion to translate them into other languages. Traffic signs should be icons where possible.

People who are charged with a crime in the US who are not fluent in English should have a translator. If they cannot afford their own, then one should be provided to them.

Businesses should be allowed to conduct their business in any language they so desire. A french restuarant should be able to keep the language and atmosphere that makes it what it is; as should a mexican or indian resuarant. The market's reception to those business will help mold the languages that they choose to use.

High school students should have two years of a foreign language. Hopefully the schools can provide at least a couple of choices.

 

[michaeledward]

You may think it is unreasonable, and on the face of it it may be - but until such time as people make an issue of it - and this lawsuit is doing just that - people will put up with it, because it's not worth the individual effort to most people. Without such lawsuits - and news stories about the medical and legal concerns - bringing this issue to the forefront so that it is in people's awareness, it will continue to be an issue. Only when enough people raise the issue, and assert their preferences, will the issue be resolved instead of discussed on the sidelines.

Kacey, there was a time, not too long ago, in our country, where the sign might have read 'Whites Only'. Is that an area where it is reasonable for people to assert their preferences?

 

[michaeledward]

Finally, I simply ask again WHY should those of us who were born and raised here, speaking English as the dominant (not exclusive or official) language of commerce and daily business, find ourselves having to defend the idea that people who come here to live and work should acquire basic functional competency in English? Why should we be compelled to adjust to a newcomer's native language in our own home towns?

My wife was raised in a French speaking household in the State of New Hampshire in the late 60's and early 70's. Her mother is a natural born citizen to this nation. I am certain there are thousands and thousands of examples of people speaking a variety of languages around our country; and the reasons for why are absolutely irrelevant. It is a fact that it goes on; even with citizens. You can find Catholic Masses around the country in many different languages. One priest friend of mine left the church I was raised in to take a post in a Polish speaking church.

Nobody is forcing any one to defend compentency in the English language. Geno's Steak House is choosing to make this a point of contention. The lawsuit is silly, but on the other hand, the solution is as close as some windex and a razor blade.

Personally, I would decide with my dollars. Knowing the owner's position, I would not spend my money at Geno's. Others might prefer to spend their money at Geno's because of his position. I guess the idea of the 'Free Market Place' doesn't quite go so far in this regard, huh?

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, there was a time, not too long ago, in our country, where the sign might have read 'Whites Only'. Is that an area where it is reasonable for people to assert their preferences?

Based on race? No. Based on the ability of the customer and business to understand each other? Yes. I know too many people - like the boy I described who died because the waitress either misunderstood or placed no importance on the special order, like my aunt who specified "no eggs" and landed in the hospital when it was ignored, like a former student whose mother misread a prescription printed in English (since she only spoke Spanish) and overdosed her child, who ended up with brain damage - who have been injured or died because of language problems - some translation, some understanding, some because people don't pay attention to details. That is not based on any type of prejudice - it is based on personal experience with the negative outcomes of a variety of language problems, of which not speaking the same language is a significant piece.

You consider requiring a common language to be prejudicial, on the same level as racial discrimination - that's pretty evident, and that's your choice. My opinion, based on my personal experiences, is different than yours, and that is my choice.

 

[Cruentus]

Although the sign is probably a bit silly, should the business owner have the right to have that sign up?

And that is the real question. This isn't about racism or anything else. It's really about the question of whether or not business owners should be allowed to run their business the way that they want.

Frankly, I am tired of people in this country trying to dictate the behavior of others. People need to worry about themselves. If this owner wants to put up a sign or not, allow smoking in his building or not, require a dress code to shop there or not, or whatever, let him.

And if someone is offended buy the sign, then that person doesn't have to shop there, and can take business elsewhere.

But nooooo. Instead let's sue him...

 

[Ray]

Although the sign is probably a bit silly, should the business owner have the right to have that sign up?

And that is the real question. This isn't about racism or anything else. It's really about the question of whether or not business owners should be allowed to run their business the way that they want.

Frankly, I am tired of people in this country trying to dictate the behavior of others. People need to worry about themselves. If this owner wants to put up a sign or not, allow smoking in his building or not, require a dress code to shop there or not, or whatever, let him.

And if someone is offended buy the sign, then that person doesn't have to shop there, and can take business elsewhere.

But nooooo. Instead let's sue him...

I grew up in an area with many spanish speakers. Many biz's had signs saying "si habla espanol" "abierto," etc. Kind of a nice way to let the spanish speakers know that they could communicate with that establishment.

A sign in English saying "order in english only" is not going to do the non-english reader much good. Perhaps a sign in the the other languages with significant speakers saying "We speak English only" may have been more beneficial to the potential customers.

 

[Cruentus]

I grew up in an area with many spanish speakers. Many biz's had signs saying "si habla espanol" "abierto," etc. Kind of a nice way to let the spanish speakers know that they could communicate with that establishment.

A sign in English saying "order in english only" is not going to do the non-english reader much good. Perhaps a sign in the the other languages with significant speakers saying "We speak English only" may have been more beneficial to the potential customers.

Right.... which is 1 of the reasons why I think the sign is sort of stupid. But my point is, if the owner wants to have a stupid sign in his window, that really is his right.