You could have heard a pin drop.
- Thread starter searcher
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CuongNhuka
Senior Master
The amount of swearing I need to do right now would ensure my being banned from this site and sued. Please just tell me that those graves are from WWII. If they're from Iraq I'll have to kill my recruiter.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
WWI and WWII
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
The Americans did help for sure. But they were comfortable enough pretending there was no war until they were attacked themselves. Even then, they only got involved in Europe because Japan and Germany had linked their fates with a pact.
If we have anyone to thank, it's the Russians who sacrificed millions, fighting their way from moscow to Berlin.
While the Americans did speed up the process of ending the war, it was already turning in favor of the allied forces by the time they arrived.
The US did make a significant difference in the timeframe, but let's not oversimplify things to the point where your message is just propaganda.
There are just as many black pages in the US history as in ours, and pretty much anyone elses.
True and it's something that 'history' really needs to remember but I don't think that Searcher was attempting to make a point that elevated America above the rest of us - maybe I missed a post, I'll go back and read before I put my foot in it 
.
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Aditionally, when Americans are making fun of the French, they are conveniently forgetting that without the French support during their war for independence, their founding fathers would have probably been hung, drawn and quartered for high treason.
http://www.google.be/search?hl=en&q=french+support+american+revolution&meta=&aq=0&oq=french+support+
French support was a decisive factor.
I am all in favor of patriotism, but it should be more than parroting propaganda, quoting punchlines and hollow symbolism.
http://www.google.be/search?hl=en&q=french+support+american+revolution&meta=&aq=0&oq=french+support+
French support was a decisive factor.
I am all in favor of patriotism, but it should be more than parroting propaganda, quoting punchlines and hollow symbolism.
It's one of the reasons why I'm such a strong advocate of people being aware of their history both the good and the bad. It's also why I get so stuffy when Hollywood makes such travesties as 'Braveheart', 'The Patriot' or 'U-571' because that becomes history to people whose only contact with the subject is the movies.
If we don't take care to recall what past steps lead us to where we are and substitute stories instead then you end up with Korea ... has anyone seen any of their supposed history books? It's not a world I recognise :lol:.
If we don't take care to recall what past steps lead us to where we are and substitute stories instead then you end up with Korea ... has anyone seen any of their supposed history books? It's not a world I recognise :lol:.
mook jong man
Senior Master
Well down here in Australia we certainly appreciate the help we got from the Yanks in fighting the Japanese in the Pacific theatre .
We were pretty damn close to spending the rest of our lives eating sushi, our small forces were already drained from fighting the Germans in Europe and elsewhere .
The Japanese were already in the Solomon Islands and New Guinea , wasn't too far till they got to the top of Australia .They had even started bombing raids on Darwin. Thats how dire the cicumstances were at that time.
A little known fact and one that even most Australians don't know about is that Darwin right at the top of Australia there , had more bombs dropped on it by the Japanese than what Pearl Harbour did .
The Australian government kept it hushed up so as not to alarm the Australian people.
There was no way in hell we could of stopped the Japanese by ourselves , so the Australian people will forever owe a debt to the American people for their help.
We were pretty damn close to spending the rest of our lives eating sushi, our small forces were already drained from fighting the Germans in Europe and elsewhere .
The Japanese were already in the Solomon Islands and New Guinea , wasn't too far till they got to the top of Australia .They had even started bombing raids on Darwin. Thats how dire the cicumstances were at that time.
A little known fact and one that even most Australians don't know about is that Darwin right at the top of Australia there , had more bombs dropped on it by the Japanese than what Pearl Harbour did .
The Australian government kept it hushed up so as not to alarm the Australian people.
There was no way in hell we could of stopped the Japanese by ourselves , so the Australian people will forever owe a debt to the American people for their help.
This isn't so. Americans had great sympathy for England in particular, and was anti-Nazi. The Americans helped in soft ways until they were once again dragged into a conflict on another continent(s). Saying that the Americans were 'comfortable' as a second European-induced World War raged is absolutely incorrect. They remembered WWI all too well. Americans wanted to help but getting your country to enter such a huge conflict "just to help" isn't so easy a task. But the U.S. didn't get involved in Europe "only" because of a German-Japanese agreement. We helped our allies...again.
I'm not sure it's quite so obvious how things would've turned out if the Germans had had to fight a war on only one major front (delaying the invasion of England as needed). The U.S. presence was certainly a morale-lifter in a way that the unpredictable Russians weren't--including that it was clear that the Americans' only goal was to help and liberate. (and think what the aftermath might've been post-May 1945 if the Americans hadn't been in Germany too.) But yes the Russians in the East made a huge difference.
Now, what about the related war in the Pacific? Who was waging that? The Japanese may have been a less direct threat to England, but to a World at War they certainly mattered.
I think most people do realize that--it's heavily taught in schools--but the French make it just too easy to lob the occasional insult at them.
Someone needs to look into Lend-Lease. The Russians were getting their asses pushed back hard until US provided weapons and ammunition started to flood into the country. It was only with the US's help, combined with German tactical and strategic errors that turned the tide on that front.
As to the European and African front's, the Germans pushed the Brits half way across Africa. It took Monty to turn that tide, and between him and Patton, they pushed the Germans and Italians out of Africa, across Sicily, and into the boot of Italy. Lets keep in mind that Patton's 7th army took the brunt of the Sicily campaign capturing both Palermo and Mesina. Patton and Monty resumed their rivalry in Europe and pushed the Germans back, hard. The only reasons the Russians made it to Berlin, was due to politics, as the US was within reach well before the Russian advance came up, a fact that pissed Georgie off to no end.
The war was hardly over when the US entered. When they did, the Brits had been holding on by their iron willpower, France was a conquered country, and most of Northern Africa was under Axis control. A year later, the map was quite different, with Italy on the wires, and Germany in retreat.
American aid in WW2 was huge.
On a side note, regarding my own personal disdain for the French.
The stories I've heard from several veterans, was that when the US forces were leaving France at the wars end, the French would line the streets and make obscene gestures, and tell them to "get out". So grateful were they that American's shed their blood to save their country when they themselves couldn't, that they would shower the trains with rocks in joy. So, to me, while the US can say thank you to the French for loaning us some money, and selling us some guns back in our infancy, we have more than repaid that debt, with high interest by our own sacrifices in recovering and restoring their own country to them. It also I am sure chaffs them terribly to owe the British the same debt for saving their collective asses, though they seem to forget that often I hear.
As to the European and African front's, the Germans pushed the Brits half way across Africa. It took Monty to turn that tide, and between him and Patton, they pushed the Germans and Italians out of Africa, across Sicily, and into the boot of Italy. Lets keep in mind that Patton's 7th army took the brunt of the Sicily campaign capturing both Palermo and Mesina. Patton and Monty resumed their rivalry in Europe and pushed the Germans back, hard. The only reasons the Russians made it to Berlin, was due to politics, as the US was within reach well before the Russian advance came up, a fact that pissed Georgie off to no end.
The war was hardly over when the US entered. When they did, the Brits had been holding on by their iron willpower, France was a conquered country, and most of Northern Africa was under Axis control. A year later, the map was quite different, with Italy on the wires, and Germany in retreat.
American aid in WW2 was huge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend_lease
On a side note, regarding my own personal disdain for the French.
The stories I've heard from several veterans, was that when the US forces were leaving France at the wars end, the French would line the streets and make obscene gestures, and tell them to "get out". So grateful were they that American's shed their blood to save their country when they themselves couldn't, that they would shower the trains with rocks in joy. So, to me, while the US can say thank you to the French for loaning us some money, and selling us some guns back in our infancy, we have more than repaid that debt, with high interest by our own sacrifices in recovering and restoring their own country to them. It also I am sure chaffs them terribly to owe the British the same debt for saving their collective asses, though they seem to forget that often I hear.
Owned
A most informative post, Cap'n Bob.
I must confess that I had forgotten about the aid to the Russians at certain points in the war - given that the Arctic Convoys was a study of mine in times gone by that is particularly embarassing.
I would say that because of the tendency of the 'received media history' to overstate the impact of the American prescence in the European theatre, people sometimes become negatively reactive to it. I'm honest enough to admit that I do at times (tho' some of that is again opinions inherited from my grandfathers and certain personality clashes between allied commanders).
Would 'we' still have won? That's a tough one to call in terms of achieving any sort of victory. We certainly would not have driven the German's out of Western Europe and I suspect that the Russians would have eaten them up from the East instead.
I feel that without the Lend Lease agreement we certainly would more likely have been forced to enter into a treaty with Hitler (which he actually wanted), not because we didn't have the will to fight but because we would't have had enough to fight with. For such a treaty to be signed, Churchill would have had to go because he would not have stood for it.
The Pacific theatre is a whole other ball game. Once we got our feet back under us out there then we gave a decent account of ourselves but the opening of the war was a complete shambles for the Empire. The American's can be justifiably proud of their efforts there and blow their own trumpet as much as they please - it can hardly be called bragging if it's something that was actually done after all :tup:.
I must confess that I had forgotten about the aid to the Russians at certain points in the war - given that the Arctic Convoys was a study of mine in times gone by that is particularly embarassing.
I would say that because of the tendency of the 'received media history' to overstate the impact of the American prescence in the European theatre, people sometimes become negatively reactive to it. I'm honest enough to admit that I do at times (tho' some of that is again opinions inherited from my grandfathers and certain personality clashes between allied commanders).
Would 'we' still have won? That's a tough one to call in terms of achieving any sort of victory. We certainly would not have driven the German's out of Western Europe and I suspect that the Russians would have eaten them up from the East instead.
I feel that without the Lend Lease agreement we certainly would more likely have been forced to enter into a treaty with Hitler (which he actually wanted), not because we didn't have the will to fight but because we would't have had enough to fight with. For such a treaty to be signed, Churchill would have had to go because he would not have stood for it.
The Pacific theatre is a whole other ball game. Once we got our feet back under us out there then we gave a decent account of ourselves but the opening of the war was a complete shambles for the Empire
. The American's can be justifiably proud of their efforts there and blow their own trumpet as much as they please - it can hardly be called bragging if it's something that was actually done after all :tup:.
A most informative post, Cap'n Bob.
I must confess that I had forgotten about the aid to the Russians at certain points in the war - given that the Arctic Convoys was a study of mine in times gone by that is particularly embarassing.
I would say that because of the tendency of the 'received media history' to overstate the impact of the American prescence in the European theatre, people sometimes become negatively reactive to it. I'm honest enough to admit that I do at times (tho' some of that is again opinions inherited from my grandfathers and certain personality clashes between allied commanders).
Would 'we' still have won? That's a tough one to call in terms of achieving any sort of victory. We certainly would not have driven the German's out of Western Europe and I suspect that the Russians would have eaten them up from the East instead.
I feel that without the Lend Lease agreement we certainly would more likely have been forced to enter into a treaty with Hitler (which he actually wanted), not because we didn't have the will to fight but because we would't have had enough to fight with. For such a treaty to be signed, Churchill would have had to go because he would not have stood for it.
The Pacific theatre is a whole other ball game. Once we got our feet back under us out there then we gave a decent account of ourselves but the opening of the war was a complete shambles for the Empire
Maybe you can comment on something I have heard as to its veracity.
I have heard that when Churchill was delivering his famous " we shall go on to the end, so much to so few, we shall fight in the streets" speech" that after the radio cut he is said to have added, "But by God, I do not know what we shall fight WITH".
Look, if we're gonna go down that road, everyone's done ****ty things to EVERYONE at some point in their dealings. that's by and large what humans DO.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Exactly. Noone can claim moral high ground in cases like this. Not the French, not the US and not Belgium.
I really appreciate the help we got from the US in WW2. I really do.
But I get tired of the 'we saved your ***' arrogance that too many seem to accept unthinkingly.
Hmm, I have heard of this before, Andy but I don't know if it's true or not. It will be no surprise that I have several books by and about Churchill and I don't recall reading such a thing in them - it has been quite some time since I last delved them, however.
What I can say is that after the well known "fight them" segment, the speach actually ends with:
and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.
Which means that the noted comment wouldn't 'fit' very well. Nontheless, I shall research this a little during the week and see if I can't get a more definitive answer for you.
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