English in the US

[Big Don]

Kacey, there was a time, not too long ago, in our country, where the sign might have read 'Whites Only'. Is that an area where it is reasonable for people to assert their preferences?

Once again, since you missed it the first ten times, Language and Race have NOTHING to do with each other.
I know there is a liberal compulsion to compare absolutely EVERYTHING to the civil rights struggle, but not all things are comparable. The one thing that is the same in this issue and in the civil rights struggle of the 50's and 60's, the liberals are on the wrong side of the issue again.

 

[Tez3]

Again a difference of opinion on the English language, it would be nice if those of you who use the words liberal and socialist as insults would bear in mind that to the rest of the word they aren't.
Great Britain along with a fair few other countries in the world is a socialist country and a great many people describe themselves as liberals which doesn't seem to mean the same thing in America as it does outside. Socialism doesn't mean communism to us, that's something different.

While I understand the arguments I'm afraid race and language have everything to do with each other. Until relatively recently here in the UK the Welsh, Scots,Irish and Cornish were forbidden to speak their own languages in an attempt to make everyone conform to one identity by speaking English. You'll find the same of the Aborigines in Australia. while that may or not be the case in this argument, you cannot separate race and language so easily as to say there is no connection.

 

[jks9199]

My wife was raised in a French speaking household in the State of New Hampshire in the late 60's and early 70's. Her mother is a natural born citizen to this nation. I am certain there are thousands and thousands of examples of people speaking a variety of languages around our country; and the reasons for why are absolutely irrelevant. It is a fact that it goes on; even with citizens. You can find Catholic Masses around the country in many different languages. One priest friend of mine left the church I was raised in to take a post in a Polish speaking church.

Yet, I'd bet your wife is fluent in both English and French, and that much of her daily business growing up, outside the home, was in English.

I've never advocated (in fact, I said the exact opposite) doing away with foreign languages. I am saying that, first, requiring a customer to order in English is most definitely not discriminatory, and that people who come here to live and work should acquire basic competency in English.

 

[Big Don]

Yet, I'd bet your wife is fluent in both English and French, and that much of her daily business growing up, outside the home, was in English.

I've never advocated (in fact, I said the exact opposite) doing away with foreign languages. I am saying that, first, requiring a customer to order in English is most definitely not discriminatory, and that people who come here to live and work should acquire basic competency in English.

Exactly!

I've never liked the "Melting Pot" analogy, to me, American culture is more like a refinery, keeping the best parts of every culture, and tossing away the dross. Over and over, continuously until the result can be called nothing but, American.

 

[Tez3]

Exactly!

I've never liked the "Melting Pot" analogy, to me, American culture is more like a refinery, keeping the best parts of every culture, and tossing away the dross. Over and over, continuously until the result can be called nothing but, American.

oooh that's a contentious statement! the best being what? and the dross being? I sense a new thread coming on lol!

 

[Empty Hands]

oooh that's a contentious statement! the best being what? and the dross being? I sense a new thread coming on lol!

Well, it's easy to say when you aren't the one expected to "melt" or "refine". In practice, most Americans don't really believe in the melting pot (or refinery). We see this in the expat communities overseas. Not all American expats, but most, construct their existence around their old country identity. They socialize mostly with other expats. They mostly drink at expat bars, and so forth. No doubt, the culture warriors of their host countries wonder why those damn insular Americans only want to hang around their own kind and only speak their own language.

It's a human tendency, to prefer the familiar, and to be lazy and not challenge yourself. Americans are no better on this score than anyone else.

 

[theletch1]

oooh that's a contentious statement! the best being what? and the dross being? I sense a new thread coming on lol!

Now, you wouldn't be instigating anything would you?:wink2:

Tez, I understand your concern for the use of the words "liberal" and "socialist" as adressed in this thread, however, as the thread topic is concerning English (I know, I know) in the US those words should be used as they are in the American vernacular. I've often had to scratch my head for a moment or two when reading posts from our members in the UK and Australia to figure out particular idiomatic expressions. It's one of those things that can be fun if taken with an eye to the differences in dialogs of this one umbrella language that we're using.

 

[michaeledward]

Right.... which is 1 of the reasons why I think the sign is sort of stupid. But my point is, if the owner wants to have a stupid sign in his window, that really is his right.

No doubt, the owner of Geno's feels that he does have such a 'right'.

A member of the community of Philadelphia, apparently, disagrees.

Philadelphia has an ordinance (that would be a law) that prohibits discrimination in employment, public accomodation, and housing on the basis of race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation.

Someone in the community apparently feels that the policy of Mr. Vento is discriminatory in "public accomodation" based on "ethnicity".

What is the correct venue for this disagreement to be settled?

 

[Cryozombie]

Here's my thoughts on this...

When the people insisting that we should accept the fact that we need to speak a language other than the one primarily spoken here realize that this country is made up of people from Europe, Russia, Africa, Asia, Central and South America, and about every other place on the planet... and THEY learn each and every langauge spoken here... well. Yeah.

If I own a buisness, not speaking Spanish, and I sell... amongst many other things Chicken on a Pita, and a spanish speaking person comes in, and Orders "Pollo en el pan plano", should I be required to know what they ordered? What if it was someone NOT spanish who ordered "Pollo su pane piano" it sounds similar, but should I understand THAT, even if I know English AND Spanish? What about the next guy who comes in and orders "Huhn auf flachem Brot?" It's simply not possible for most people to speak that many languages.

At what point do I as a buisness owner have the right to refuse service? Because, When I cannot provide the service to you because I dont understand what you request, how CAN I provide you service?

With that in mind, this country is PREDOMINATLEY English speaking... so why is it so wrong then to ask other people to integrate to english, but NOT wrong to insist that an english speaking person learn a non-english language?

Neverminding the fact that in my past, my Heritige is Irish and German, I was born and raised an American, where MY cultural uprining was English. Why should *I* surrender MY culture, but a Spanish speaking person shouldn't have to surrender theirs?

 

[Cryozombie]

Philadelphia has an ordinance (that would be a law) that prohibits discrimination in employment, public accomodation, and housing on the basis of race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation.

Someone in the community apparently feels that the policy of Mr. Vento is discriminatory in "public accomodation" based on "ethnicity".

What is the correct venue for this disagreement to be settled?

I challenge that Mr. Vento is being discriminated against for Speaking english. It should be "Public Accomodation" that people trying to obtain a service from him be able to speak the language of his heritage. In fact I wonder if every english speaking person should sue every Mexican restaraunt in Philidelphia that lists "Pollo" on their menu instead of "Chicken" because there is no "Public Accomodation" for english speaking people trying to order mexican food... You would support THAT lawsuit as well, right Mike?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Again a difference of opinion on the English language, it would be nice if those of you who use the words liberal and socialist as insults would bear in mind that to the rest of the word they aren't.
Great Britain along with a fair few other countries in the world is a socialist country and a great many people describe themselves as liberals which doesn't seem to mean the same thing in America as it does outside. Socialism doesn't mean communism to us, that's something different.

.

I'm sorry, Tez, but to us, in the last century which in many ways shaped our country the two big enemies we had were the Nazis ( National Socialist Party) and the former Soviet Union (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics).

That word will NEVER shed that image to us, sorry.

 

[Empty Hands]

If I own a buisness, not speaking Spanish, and I sell... amongst many other things Chicken on a Pita, and a spanish speaking person comes in, and Orders "Pollo en el pan plano", should I be required to know what they ordered?

Only if you want their money.

 

[Cryozombie]

Only if you want their money.

So it should be my choice then, who I am willing to accept money from? Doesnt that idea violate Philly's law tho? And... couldnt your statement go the other way? They should only NOT be able to order "Chicken on a Pita" if they dont want my product?

 

[Gordon Nore]

Again a difference of opinion on the English language, it would be nice if those of you who use the words liberal and socialist as insults would bear in mind that to the rest of the word they aren't.
Great Britain along with a fair few other countries in the world is a socialist country and a great many people describe themselves as liberals which doesn't seem to mean the same thing in America as it does outside. Socialism doesn't mean communism to us, that's something different.

Very well put, Tez. I appreciate the way you explained this.

 

[Empty Hands]

I'm sorry, Tez, but to us, in the last century which in many ways shaped our country the two big enemies we had were the Nazis ( National Socialist Party) and the former Soviet Union (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics).

That word will NEVER shed that image to us, sorry.

That's just silly. The Brits fought the same enemy, remember? Perhaps they have the intelligence to realize that if they got into a war with a Democracy, let's say, that says more about the country at hand than it does Democracy itself. Same for Socialism (nevermind that the NSDAP was socialist in name only). What would you ever do if you had to fight a war with some other country named America? Or if some guy you hated more than anything was named Andy? :idunno:

 

[Andy Moynihan]

That's just silly. The Brits fought the same enemy, remember? Perhaps they have the intelligence to realize that if they got into a war with a Democracy, let's say, that says more about the country at hand than it does Democracy itself. Same for Socialism (nevermind that the NSDAP was socialist in name only). What would you ever do if you had to fight a war with some other country named America? Or if some guy you hated more than anything was named Andy? :idunno:

Tez asked why most of us view the term "socialist" or "liberal" as dirty words. I explained to the best of my ability. That was all. You are off on some whoooooooole other planet.

 

[Empty Hands]

So it should be my choice then, who I am willing to accept money from?

Yep. Personally, green is a universal language to me. If I'm running a business, I'll communicate in pantomime if I have to to obtain some of that universal green.

They should only NOT be able to order "Chicken on a Pita" if they dont want my product?

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Tez3]

Well, it's easy to say when you aren't the one expected to "melt" or "refine". In practice, most Americans don't really believe in the melting pot (or refinery). We see this in the expat communities overseas. Not all American expats, but most, construct their existence around their old country identity. They socialize mostly with other expats. They mostly drink at expat bars, and so forth. No doubt, the culture warriors of their host countries wonder why those damn insular Americans only want to hang around their own kind and only speak their own language.

It's a human tendency, to prefer the familiar, and to be lazy and not challenge yourself. Americans are no better on this score than anyone else.

Ah but I know a lot more about assimilation than you imagine, I'm only a first generation Brit. My parents were Dutch concentration camp survivors. They thought they were assimilated, turns out they weren't by the Germans standards. You may imagine Britain as one country, it isn't. The alliance between the countries isn't a willing one and is certainly an uneasy one. Scotland, Ireland and Wales are gradually leaving this alliance. There is much bitterness in our history that still affects how we see things now. The need to speak one language and be one people wasn't what all the people felt. We also have a great many immigrants into this country to add to the mix, some are from Commonwealth countries others are from Europe. The speaking of a common language is of concern here too, official forms are now in at least 6 languages if not more.

Andy, it's strange isn't it that two parties holding opposite views can both call themselves socialists? Nazis were fascists and the USSR were communists with neither of them being what the rest of Europe thinks of as socialists!

 

[Empty Hands]

Tez asked why we view the term "socialist" or "liberal" as dirty words. I explained.

Yeah, and I explained why your explanation was silly.

You are off on another planet.

Well, nothing new there.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Ah but I know a lot more about assimilation than you imagine, I'm only a first generation Brit. My parents were Dutch concentration camp survivors. They thought they were assimilated, turns out they weren't by the Germans standards. You may imagine Britain as one country, it isn't. The alliance between the countries isn't a willing one and is certainly an uneasy one. Scotland, Ireland and Wales are gradually leaving this alliance. There is much bitterness in our history that still affects how we see things now. The need to speak one language and be one people wasn't what all the people felt. We also have a great many immigrants into this country to add to the mix, some are from Commonwealth countries others are from Europe. The speaking of a common language is of concern here too, official forms are now in at least 6 languages if not more.



Andy, it's strange isn't it that two parties holding opposite views can both call themselves socialists? Nazis were fascists and the USSR were communists with neither of them being what the rest of Europe thinks of as socialists!

I know. Nonetheless their actions have become what defines the term for us.


Much the same way no one can look at a swastika anymore and ever see it for anything but a Nazi symbol despite it being at least one Native American tribe's symbol as well, or that it was in Teutonic mythology as one of Thor's weapons. Such was the impact they had. like it or not.