Drugs in the dojo

[chufeng]

Gou,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I even respect it.
But, you are clearly misreading my posts....

You stated: "If the student asks you into their life then fine. Don't push your way in."

Where in my post do I indicate that I am pushing my way into their personal life?

You also stated: "I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to."

In our system we do teach a way of life...but no-one has to CONFORM to anything...if you see martial arts as a job, hobby, sport, etc...then you are not walking in the footsteps of past masters of the various systems...martial arts is a way (Do/Tao).

You said: "If the person isn't killing people in his spare time or peddling drugs or doesn't come into the school under the influence and otherwise isn't affecting the school all you can do is to offer help. To force it on someone by kicking them out etc isn't going to do anything but salve your conscience."

All I suggested was supporting an effort at rehab...
As far as kicking someone out (I only suggested that for a dealer), you again didn't read very carefully...I said I would take away the right to instruct (and that might mean a demotion) but would allow him to stay on as a student until he was clean (but if the problem persisted would then ask him to leave)...that isn't forcing anything down anyone's throat...that is actually taking a stand for a belief and allowing the student/assistant instructor to make a choice (I'm sure you are familiar with the term consequences)..."What is more important, the drugs or the training?" Relativism (known as tolerance to the PC crowd) may be appropriate for some behaviors, but sometimes a stance has to be made...

You stated: "If he's selling to the students inside the studio then the guy needs a beating."

Nowhere in my post did I advocate battery...
I would offer, instead, a possible beating the next time he darkened the kwoon's door...then he would have fair warning...but realistically, the kwoon would be in jeopardy of a lawsuit and although emotionally rewarding, the beating might be the worst thing any instructor could do...losing a school is not worth the pleasure...and while I'm on the subject of lawsuits, do you think that a parent might sue the school if he/she learned that you knew of an assistant instructor's habit and did nothing...and the assistant instructor then somehow involved the parent's son or daughter in some kind of drug activity? Even if it was simply by implying that the behavior was acceptable?

One last thing: I work in a field where access to very potent drugs are available every day...I know where a habit may lead...the first indication one has of fentanyl abuse, for instance, is that the user is found dead in a bathroom stall...those who have been found out and successfully rehabilitated are eternally grateful...they literally believe that if they had not been "caught," they WOULD be dead today...and, as I said earlier, the black sash community within our system IS a family and to ignore a problem as significant as drug abuse SHOUTS out "I don't care..."
But the truth is, I do care...and so I speak out.

Peace

:asian:
chufeng

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
Gou,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I even respect it.
But, you are clearly misreading my posts....

Ok, but after re-reading your posts it seems that i must have mis-understood. You have a stance but you flip flop around on how to enforce it and where. I suspect that it is a case-by-case thing for you.

Originally posted by chufeng
You stated: "If the student asks you into their life then fine. Don't push your way in."
Where in my post do I indicate that I am pushing my way into their personal life?

"...but to suggest that, as long as the user can still teach effectively, it's not the school's business is ludicrous..."

Sounded like you deny that a person can have any sort of addiction and still function. People do it all the time. I don't think that anyone's personal business is the schools until it affects the school.

Originally posted by chufeng
You also stated: "I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to."
In our system we do teach a way of life...but no-one has to CONFORM to anything...if you see martial arts as a job, hobby, sport, etc...then you are not walking in the footsteps of past masters of the various systems...martial arts is a way (Do/Tao).

If you see martial arts as a way of life then maybe you are not seeing that they were made as a war art. The way of life is secondary but so many people have flipped these concepts around.

Please don't start to tell me how a martial artists SHOULD be. These are your opinions. Not mine. Please don't tell me that you know the true footsteps of the past masters. You don't any more than I do. I'll walk my path and you walk yours but yours is no better than mine.

Originally posted by chufeng
You said: "If the person isn't killing people in his spare time or peddling drugs or doesn't come into the school under the influence and otherwise isn't affecting the school all you can do is to offer help. To force it on someone by kicking them out etc isn't going to do anything but salve your conscience."
All I suggested was supporting an effort at rehab...
As far as kicking someone out (I only suggested that for a dealer), you again didn't read very carefully...I said I would take away the right to instruct (and that might mean a demotion) but would allow him to stay on as a student until he was clean (but if the problem persisted would then ask him to leave)...that isn't forcing anything down anyone's throat...that is actually taking a stand for a belief and allowing the student/assistant instructor to make a choice (I'm sure you are familiar with the term consequences)..."What is more important, the drugs or the training?" Relativism (known as tolerance to the PC crowd) may be appropriate for some behaviors, but sometimes a stance has to be made...

Fine. I can see your point. But it's not my job to do anything more than teach an art if I chose to. You stated:

Originally posted by chufeng
but the situation referenced in this discussion was about a junior black belt...if you've still got problems at that level, then YOU haven't done your job...period.

Again, you're pushing your view of what a teacher's job at the Dojo is. It might be your view. Not others. My job is nothing when it comes to walking past those dojo doors. Maybe in your Kwoon it's different.

Originally posted by chufeng
You stated: "If he's selling to the students inside the studio then the guy needs a beating."
Nowhere in my post did I advocate battery...

Never said you did. I stated that.

Originally posted by chufeng
I would offer, instead, a possible beating the next time he darkened the kwoon's door...then he would have fair warning...but realistically, the kwoon would be in jeopardy of a lawsuit and although emotionally rewarding, the beating might be the worst thing any instructor could do...losing a school is not worth the pleasure...and while I'm on the subject of lawsuits, do you think that a parent might sue the school if he/she learned that you knew of an assistant instructor's habit and did nothing...and the assistant instructor then somehow involved the parent's son or daughter in some kind of drug activity? Even if it was simply by implying that the behavior was acceptable?

Until you knew there was a problem it didn't affect you now did it? When it affects you then you take action. This is all very dependant on you knowing what was going on. If we say you have a great instructor who smokes weed in his own house on his own time and you never knew yet one day you pop by and he's lighting up a joint an suddenly he's not allowed to teach or being demoted despite the fact that he is doing it in his own home?

Originally posted by chufeng
One last thing: I work in a field where access to very potent drugs are available every day...I know where a habit may lead...the first indication one has of fentanyl abuse, for instance, is that the user is found dead in a bathroom stall...those who have been found out and successfully rehabilitated are eternally grateful...they literally believe that if they had not been "caught," they WOULD be dead today...and, as I said earlier, the black sash community within our system IS a family and to ignore a problem as significant as drug abuse SHOUTS out "I don't care..."
But the truth is, I do care...and so I speak out.

You're not the only one who works in a drug environment. People are responsible for themselves. Not every user is suddenly greatful they are found out and rehabbed. Many get treated like dirt. Not everyone wants to stop. You're fooling yourself if you think that.

I can agree that you make your stand on what you will do when you are confronted. Just don't expect us all to line up behind you. Your world view is yours and you're welcome to it and I think you have the right to have it. In fact I support your right to have it. Just that not everyone's is the same so don't be surprised when it's not.

 

[chufeng]

Gou,

Then we agree to disagree...

For the record (this is for the general group of posters),

My art is a way...

I do expect instructors to hold to a certain standard...

Although I don't "know" what the old masters thought, I can read what they wrote; and, teaching was more than just a job to them, or they are liars...I don't think they were liars.

(and this is for you) As far as martial art vs. martial way...I practice a way...you practice an art...we will see things differently simply based on THAT difference in our approach to training/teaching...no hard feelings.

I am thankful that the people I work with are grateful when found out...if your experience is different, that is unfortunate...perhaps it has hardened your view, I don't know.

BTW, if I went to someone's private home and found them smoking marijuana, I would simply tell them to keep it quiet and out of the kwoon...with the warning that if it became a problem, I would have to take stiffer measures...but then each teacher would know that up front, anyways...I am not the Gistapo you seem to think I am...

I don't see in my posts where I thought my art was better than anyone else's...did you just put that in to rub my nose in it?...
If so, why?

I hold to the old maxim that the teacher points the way, the student walks the path...nowhere in our system do we try and change people's beliefs...nowhere in our system do we "shove things down the throats" of our students...

Hopefully future exchanges will be more cordial...but it does seem you like to argue, and then maybe that was your intent all along...to lure me into an argument...if so, you succeeded...but I'm tired of this one, so until next time...adieu

:asian:
chufeng

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
Then we agree to disagree...

That's ok by me.

Originally posted by chufeng
(and this is for you) As far as martial art vs. martial way...I practice a way...you practice an art...we will see things differently simply based on THAT difference in our approach to training/teaching...no hard feelings.

No. You don't know what I practice. You assume. No hard feelings. I don't do what I do to make friends. I have enough of those. If I make friends it is a nice by product.

Originally posted by chufeng
anyways...I am not the Gistapo you seem to think I am...
I don't see in my posts where I thought my art was better than anyone else's...did you just put that in to rub my nose in it?...
If so, why?

I think we agreed to disagree. You missed my point or misunderstood it. But I did not say that I thought you said your art was better. I believe I said, "Please don't start to tell me how a martial artist SHOULD be. These are your opinions. Not mine. Please don't tell me that you know the true footsteps of the past masters. You don't any more than I do. I'll walk my path and you walk yours but yours is no better than mine."

Again, I'll say that I respect your point of view. As I stated before: "I can agree that you make your stand on what you will do when you are confronted. Just don't expect us all to line up behind you. Your world view is yours and you're welcome to it and I think you have the right to have it. In fact I support your right to have it. Just that not everyone's is the same so don't be surprised when it's not."

Cheers.

 

[chufeng]

I didn't say the following, you did:


"I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to."

"If you see martial arts as a way of life then maybe you are not seeing that they were made as a war art. The way of life is secondary but so many people have flipped these concepts around."

"Again, you're pushing your view of what a teacher's job at the Dojo is. It might be your view. Not others. My job is nothing when it comes to walking past those dojo doors."

I'm not surprised when people don't see the world through my eyes...I don't expect it and if I did I would be some kind of egomaniacal Napolean if that were the case...

You implied in your post that martial arts is NOT a way...that the way part is secondary...

...you are right I don't know what you practice, what you teach, or what you think...but if you do practice a "way," then you ARE playing Devil's advocate and are doing this because you LIKE to argue...if you don't practice a "way," then your posts are intentionally cryptic...

...and, FYI, (I don't want any confusion on this point) I did start martial arts because of an interest in the philosophies of Old China...my search was for a "way," the ***-kicking was secondary to my training (although I became quite good at it)...
Students come to our group for a variety of reasons...no one is forced into a "way" of anything...we teach the physical drills and forms...we teach nei gong and qi gong...we require students to research other arts and different philosophies...they come to their own conclusions...the above added only so assumptions aren't made...Our system offers a "way" it does not offer THE WAY...I don't think any system can offer THAT...

...BTW, I have a decent DitDaJow recipe if your interested...you'd need to purchase the herbs and alcohol and mix it yourself, but it is good stuff...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
...BTW, I have a decent DitDaJow recipe if your interested...you'd need to purchase the herbs and alcohol and mix it yourself, but it is good stuff...

My thanx. I may take you up on that.
:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

Chiduce,
I know this post is late in the thread but I agree with what you have said. I've been there and done that also with one instructor and knew of another school many years ago that was run that way. I thought times had changed maybe they have not.

AS for the disscussion in general. I dont want a student in class that is so drunk or high that he is dirsupting class. on the other hand maybe a "goooood" workout and some heavy sparing while he is in this condition might show him/her the error of comeing to class that way.
Takeing the student aside and asking if the student has any problems (general terms) and stateing that you have noticed a diffrence in the students behavior lately may bring a response.
A general disscussion of class rules to the whole class with the school policy being given on all subjects ( from sexual harresment to drugs/drinking, to helping clean floors and changing area is helpful. No one is singled out that way but everyone knows what is expected.
Shadow

 

[chufeng]

Gou,

If you really want the recipe, you will have to e-mail me at [email protected]

Send me your home address...the recipe is in Chinese so you'll have to take it (or mail it) to an herb seller (but there is no way to send it over the internet)...if you need a mail order herb source I can supply that, too.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

... and after reading your post again...

Where did I say I wanted to be friends????

I came here to see what people had to say...what I might learn...what I might offer...nothing more, nothing less...

Not posted to antagonize, only to clarify...

Peace

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Bujingodai]

I and my school have similar opinions as others. Some are recognized by law.
First off drug use is illegal, it's not recreational. If you smoke it your a loser. Point blank. Don't convince me otherwise.
In our school the class is a family, the instructors are guides. Patriarchs to some, not really by choice. In our school you are told no drugs will be consumed. No drinking on dojo time (unless a dojo function, I'm not dead) And while a student you will not willingly put yourself in trouble with the law. Image and Reputation and Honour is everything. 1 warning, absolute stop. Next time out. And it has been enforced in our school. It really sucks watching a good student over 2 years decimate because you want to stay out of his business. The trail they leave behind is beutiful. Obviously I have a personal issue with this one. But drugs have no place in the dojo. It is not a mattter of someones business.:soapbox:

 

[sweeper]

the statement that drug use is not recreational is incorrect.

go look up recreation in the dictionary, (I had transcribed the definition as well as the definition of recreate but explorer died when I hit the post button so I'm to anoyed to repost ) it means to refresh or to restore, it can mean either physicaly or mentaly, it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not it can still be recreation. now It may not be recreational for you but that's diffrent than simply not being recreational.

 

[deadhand31]

Either way, recreational or not, those who imbibe have no place in a school. I know we're not perfect, and people will succumb to addictions. First, I think the option should be made to help them. However, like the case with the bad apple, they don't want help, and they don't realize that they have a problem. If it's that bad, then they need a rude awakening to how much of a problem it is.

 

[Goldendragon7]

worse yet they may infect other students and drive off business.......

:soapbox:

 

[sweeper]

I would agree deahand just have this anoying compulsion to point out technicalities.

 

[Shinzu]

drugs is unfortuately a big part of our society, but it has no place in my life or in the martial arts.

everyone in life makes mistakes and should be allowed to correct them. if they are willing to do so and have taken the right steps, then by all means they should be allowed to stay.
a martial arts family can have a bigger impact on someone who is travelling down the wrong path.

on the other hand, if things become out of control. proper measures should be taken. refuse the student from any training, and let them know that he/she is very close to being "kicked out" if things don't turn around.

talk to your students about this issue and inform them what is going on, and what you are doing to prevent it in your school.

the last thing you need is someone bringing your students down when they are there to build positive results.

 

[Nightingale]

If you are an instructor or assistant instructor, you must behave with the responsibility your rank and position requires, and that includes following the laws our society has laid down, even if you don't always agree with them. If you are using drugs, you are not being responsible and are not setting a good example, and should therefore surrender your rank and position until the time comes that you can respect yourself enough to reassume said rank and position.

For anyone in doubt... would you let a public school teacher who admittedly used drugs on a regular basis teach your child in a classroom? no? then don't let that person teach your child in a karate school either. A teacher is a teacher. They have a lot of influence on young minds, a lot more than most people think. A karate instructor is someone children look up to as an example, whether you intend to be or not, therefore, you have to behave accordingly.

Regarding pot or tobacco in my home: I have a sign above my doorbell: "Anyone caught smoking anything in this apartment will be considered 'on fire' and treated accordingly" my family and friends didn't take me seriously until my brother lit up a cigarette and I pulled out the super soaker. We haven't ever had a problem since.

Regarding pot or tobacco anywhere else: I don't care what you do as long as I don't have to breathe it. I like my lungs and I'd like to keep em, thanks. I love living in California. I can go to a bar and shoot a game of pool and not come home stinking of cigarettes.

Regarding anything harder than pot, anywhere: If I see it, I will report it, to your parents if you're underage, and to the cops if you're old enough to know better. End of discussion.

Just my $0.02...

Respectfully,

Nightingale

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I have a sign above my doorbell:

"Anyone caught smoking anything in this apartment will be considered 'on fire' and treated accordingly"......

........my brother lit up a cigarette and I pulled out the super soaker!!

We haven't ever had a problem since.

ROFLMAO

I also have a NO SMOKE POLICY - I love the Super Soaker thing!!

:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

hehe. feel free to borrow the idea... I came up with it in college when I was the RA for a dorm of freshmen girls. The dorm had a strict no smoking policy that we were having trouble enforcing. We finally put up signs all over the dorm saying "Those smoking in this building will be considered on fire and treated accordingly" and started carrying around glasses of water whenever we went on rounds to check the building. After two or three soakings, the girls decided we were serious and took the cancer sticks outside.

 

[Goldendragon7]

but, I'm with you all the way!!

I HATE SMOKING!


:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

I don't care if someone else smokes. If they want to ruin their lungs, its their problem. However, I do care if I have to breathe it because they're standing somewhere near me and I can't move... like in line at disneyland or in the seats at Edison Field. I also don't like that i can't exit a movie theatre without walking through a cloud. For some reason, I guess, smokers can't smell the smoke as much as those of us that don't smoke can. My dad used to smoke, and he quit (because I was having breathing problems and my doctor told him to quit or move out, so he quit) and now when he smells stale smoke on someone he says "I can't believe I used to smell like that... I never noticed it"