American Kenpo not a complete art?

[TSDTexan]

I don't necessarily equate spirituality with religion, though they are linked for those who are religious. And even if Karate had been entirely derived from a religion, what would it matter, so long as you aren't using it for religious purposes?

I don't want to stray too far and thread jack.
So I will keep it short.

According to my understanding of the scriptures, while I have faith that using it for self defense is not in itself a sin, I am obligated not to.

This for the sake of other Christ followers, especially those who have renounced that hypothetical religion or any other religion, and are "immature, or weak" in their newfound faith, to not be a cause for their stumbling.

This principle was established a long time ago, when animal sacrifices were a fairly common thing, and meat from the pagan ritual sacrifice was sold in the marketplace. Young Christians who had converted often became vegetarians, and were being troubled by observing other Christians eating meat. St. Paul from Tarsus gave written instruction in the matter.

While it was lawful, or not a sin to eat meat that was harvested from a pagan animal sacrifice... Paul instructed that it should be avoided during a communal meal, where it would cause problems.

If karate were derived from a religion, and I practiced it, or taught it openly in public... I would be a cause for stumbling in Christian converts from that religion.

It gets even more complicated as a Messianic Jew.
So I think that is all I will say on that.

 

[TSDTexan]

People get weird about that stuff. A friend of a friend moved to rural Louisiana due to her husband’s Army relocation (is that the right term?). She was a yoga instructor wanting to teach some local women. They all said they had to ask their pastor first to make sure there were no religious conflicts. The pastor advised them not to, and all the women complied. Culture shock for us New Yorkers. Perhaps not so much for you North Carolinians (is that the term?) though.

Yep, I have seen this stuff go down.
My own personal problem, is I don't want to be anywhere where my eyes can see really good looking ladies, wearing them yoga pants and moving their assets into postures that can cause me think highly inappropriate thoughts.

#anime-nosebleed

So yeah, I will pass on yoga all together.
And maintain my composure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People get weird about that stuff. A friend of a friend moved to rural Louisiana due to her husband’s Army relocation (is that the right term?). She was a yoga instructor wanting to teach some local women. They all said they had to ask their pastor first to make sure there were no religious conflicts. The pastor advised them not to, and all the women complied. Culture shock for us New Yorkers. Perhaps not so much for you North Carolinians (is that the term?) though.

Yeah, and even less so when I was a South Carolinian (yes, correct term). I can remember more than once someone commenting that they'd like to study martial arts, but their pastor had told them not to - they thought it was a religious thing, and Christians couldn't do it. Since I've literally never heard a word of actual religion (Eastern or Western) spoken by any of my instructors - in class or otherwise - all I could do was face-palm.

 

[pdg]

I don't necessarily equate spirituality with religion, though they are linked for those who are religious. And even if Karate had been entirely derived from a religion, what would it matter, so long as you aren't using it for religious purposes?

There is this... And also...

Spirituality only has anything to do with religion if you make it so.

I was under the impression that religious conversation was the same as political discussion (there's certainly mention of "religion and politics").

As it is, I could make many many comments about the mental capacity of someone who seeks permission about exercise from their preacher because of possible theological conflict, or about the sanctimonious attitude of a preacher who says yoga might be too much a test of faith, or the establishment(s) in general but each one would likely be banworthy, so I'd better not


Christ on a stick, might as well start a thread about gun control...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Christ on a stick

This always sounds to me like the most heretical festival food ever.

 

[pdg]

This always sounds to me like the most heretical festival food ever.

Depends how you look at it...

I went to a Catholic school and remember the words:

Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my body...

So, heretical or dogmatic?

 

[wanderingstudent]

This thread touches on a few things I've been putting off asking...

1. It seems to me alot of broken people end up studing Kung Fu. Do people from other disciplines find the same, for their study?

2. Folks that are religious- how does their training line up with their beliefs?

3. If the theories are there, but not explicitly taught; are the lessons taught anyway?
Ex. The generalization is that Arts from Shaolin have underlying Buddist teachings. Strikes may maim, but not kill; there is respect for all living things. So, belonging to Shaolin you get the physical side- the movements, and attend Temple for the spiritual side. But, let's say you only do the physical side, as most of us do. Over time, do you think someone would unknowingly adapt or present the spiritual side?

I think so. I just don't know if it is simply a symptom of getting older. The challenges I face on a daily basis has changed, from when I was 20.

Thoughts?

 

[Flying Crane]

This thread touches on a few things I've been putting off asking...

1. It seems to me alot of broken people end up studing Kung Fu. Do people from other disciplines find the same, for their study?

2. Folks that are religious- how does their training line up with their beliefs?

3. If the theories are there, but not explicitly taught; are the lessons taught anyway?
Ex. The generalization is that Arts from Shaolin have underlying Buddist teachings. Strikes may maim, but not kill; there is respect for all living things. So, belonging to Shaolin you get the physical side- the movements, and attend Temple for the spiritual side. But, let's say you only do the physical side, as most of us do. Over time, do you think someone would unknowingly adapt or present the spiritual side?

I think so. I just don't know if it is simply a symptom of getting older. The challenges I face on a daily basis has changed, from when I was 20.

Thoughts?

Care to elaborate on number one?

I’ve got no comment on number two

For number three, particularly with your example, i do not agree that it is valid. I doubt those teachings exist, as well as the notion that the method would be specifically designed around such a notion of you may main but not kill. What someone does with the knowledge is up to them. That is personal and will be guided by ones own beliefs.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

He doesnt know what his talking about Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day street fighting it applies logic and practicality its also a thinking arts also it means law of the fist

Why is he saying all black belts are Junckies his outta his mind is he dum or something black belt became black belts and Sifus becased they earn it they work hard their blood sweat and tears are in it

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends how you look at it...

I went to a Catholic school and remember the words:



So, heretical or dogmatic?

I went to Catholic school, too. You have a point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This thread touches on a few things I've been putting off asking...

1. It seems to me alot of broken people end up studing Kung Fu. Do people from other disciplines find the same, for their study?

2. Folks that are religious- how does their training line up with their beliefs?

3. If the theories are there, but not explicitly taught; are the lessons taught anyway?
Ex. The generalization is that Arts from Shaolin have underlying Buddist teachings. Strikes may maim, but not kill; there is respect for all living things. So, belonging to Shaolin you get the physical side- the movements, and attend Temple for the spiritual side. But, let's say you only do the physical side, as most of us do. Over time, do you think someone would unknowingly adapt or present the spiritual side?

I think so. I just don't know if it is simply a symptom of getting older. The challenges I face on a daily basis has changed, from when I was 20.

Thoughts?

I'll use my primary art as an example, because it sits in an odd place (that will make sense in a moment). Nihon Goshin Aikido is not descended from Ueshiba's Aikido, but is a "cousin" to it (both primarily derived from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu). The most common philosophical approach in NGA is the one I've seen most common in Eastern MA, in general: don't hurt them any more than is necessary, but they did start this mess (assuming a self-defense usage). However, there are instructors within NGA who (because they confound their own art with Ueshiba's, because it has the word "Aikido") have adopted Ueshiba's late-life philosophy of doing no damage. I have heard several use the statement of ethics found in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, which puts "defending without harm to either attacker or defender" as the highest ethical point.

Me, I'm not that kind of instructor. I teach destructions as destructions, and talk about when they would be appropriate. I have no illusion of defending against a knife by being nice. If a weapon shows up, unless the person is hopelessly uncoordinated, I'll be as violent as I deem necessary. I teach people techniques for using violence to respond to violence. I also teach some techniques that can be used more softly, once the situation is somewhat controlled.

I don't think the art - the physical principles of physical response - have any effect upon that philosophy in any of those three cases. I don't think there's inherent spirituality in the physical art.

 

[Ironbear24]

I can't really relate to any of this. I was raised catholic but I never had any issues with Martial arts and religion being incompatible. I'm also pretty much agnostic now so if the pope were to come out and say something against it I'd basically not care.

 

[JR 137]

Regarding religious stuff in MA...

When I die, if I’m told I’m not getting into heaven, I highly doubt practicing MA will be the reason. They’ve got so much dirt on me that MA, no matter how heretical it may be, won’t enter the equation. Not waiting to get married, treating my body like my personal sexual amusement park, etc. will keep me out before MA is brought up. And that’s only the stuff I’ll readily admit to here.

 

[wanderingstudent]

Care to elaborate on number one?

I’ve got no comment on number two

For number three, particularly with your example, i do not agree that it is valid. I doubt those teachings exist, as well as the notion that the method would be specifically designed around such a notion of you may main but not kill. What someone does with the knowledge is up to them. That is personal and will be guided by ones own beliefs.

Care to elaborate on number one?

I’ve got no comment on number two

For number three, particularly with your example, i do not agree that it is valid. I doubt those teachings exist, as well as the notion that the method would be specifically designed around such a notion of you may main but not kill. What someone does with the knowledge is up to them. That is personal and will be guided by ones own beliefs.

Yes- #1. I've experienced a number of individuals who have anger issues, mental issues, substance abuse issues coming through the doors of the various Kung Fu schools; I've attended. If they are looking at it as an answer to help cope, great. I didn't know if it was something unique to Kung Fu or other disciplines see it, as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes- #1. I've experienced a number of individuals who have anger issues, mental issues, substance abuse issues coming through the doors of the various Kung Fu schools; I've attended. If they are looking at it as an answer to help cope, great. I didn't know if it was something unique to Kung Fu or other disciplines see it, as well.

I guess I haven’t had that experience.

 

[Flying Crane]

Regarding religious stuff in MA...

When I die, if I’m told I’m not getting into heaven, I highly doubt practicing MA will be the reason. They’ve got so much dirt on me that MA, no matter how heretical it may be, won’t enter the equation. Not waiting to get married, treating my body like my personal sexual amusement park, etc. will keep me out before MA is brought up. And that’s only the stuff I’ll readily admit to here.

Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes- #1. I've experienced a number of individuals who have anger issues, mental issues, substance abuse issues coming through the doors of the various Kung Fu schools; I've attended. If they are looking at it as an answer to help cope, great. I didn't know if it was something unique to Kung Fu or other disciplines see it, as well.

More than you'd find in the average population - say, among factory workers? My experience is that there's about the same amount of injured souls among MA as anywhere else.

 

[_Simon_]

This thread touches on a few things I've been putting off asking...

1. It seems to me alot of broken people end up studing Kung Fu. Do people from other disciplines find the same, for their study?

2. Folks that are religious- how does their training line up with their beliefs?

3. If the theories are there, but not explicitly taught; are the lessons taught anyway?
Ex. The generalization is that Arts from Shaolin have underlying Buddist teachings. Strikes may maim, but not kill; there is respect for all living things. So, belonging to Shaolin you get the physical side- the movements, and attend Temple for the spiritual side. But, let's say you only do the physical side, as most of us do. Over time, do you think someone would unknowingly adapt or present the spiritual side?

I think so. I just don't know if it is simply a symptom of getting older. The challenges I face on a daily basis has changed, from when I was 20.

Thoughts?

Some great and thought-provoking questions wanderingstudent

1) It's possible, alot of people do start martial arts coming from a challenging background, and wanting to find some peace, focus, and a way to move through whatever they're going through. Not to mention a great community and social atmosphere to be a part of.

2) I'm not religious as such but am spiritually oriented and devoted to that, and I've found that I've learned so much through MA. The way I see it, spirituality isn't separate from your day-to-day life, including MA, but it encompasses and recontextualises everything you do, and you can find greater meaning within everything having that as a place you come from.

When I trained in Kyokushin, when training got reeeally intense in the dojo and to that next level, it showed me things I never realised about myself. All sorts of beliefs, resistances and limitations came to the fore, and it seemed that only through putting yourself through the 'fire' will some of that stuff come up to be processed and let go of. You leave feeling so much lighter having faced that, and much less burdened than when you walked in the dojo.

And even in doing basics you can enter a real zone of total focus on what you're doing, and at times everything falls away, you see the body doing techniques automatically and totally on it's own and you're just the witness of it, and a greater dimension opens within yourself.

I think martial arts brings you to such a vulnerable place, to me it's not about learning to be 'strong', but learning to let yourself be vulnerable enough to let go of your defenses and resistances, and see where your true strength lies.

So my spirituality informs my practice, rather than the style, and there can only really be any 'conflict' if you're holding onto beliefs and comparing with the mind. If you know your intention and where you're coming from, it's only truly not serving you if the style/dojo/instructor clearly is coming from non-integrity and negative energy, and if it's not in line with your overall way of being and spiritual orientation. And you can usually intuit this and simply go elsewhere .

3) Yeah that's the thing, it's rare to find a martial art that will cater solely to the spiritual or have that as a main focus, but I reckon the best ones will already have spirituality taught throughout it, but nonverbally. Practicing drills which emphasise experiential qualities rather than belief systems.

But that being said I haven't been everywhere so I don't know! But that's what I'm currently doing, looking around and visiting dojos and seeing what I intuit as 'right for me' or 'absolutely nooooo'. As I'm realizing I can't really cherrypick and be too specific with what I'm looking for, and I'm going by feel rather than what a style 'should' be about.

Thanks for bringing those questions up, that's cleared a few things up for me just writing this

 

[Saheim]

2. Folks that are religious- how does their training line up with their beliefs?

We had a Muslim start, at a dojo I used to be at. He said he could not bow to anyone as it counted as worship which, obviously, worshipping anyone/thing other than God is bad. The Professor made a small accommodation for him. Here's where it gets funny - I am also a Muslim and have no problem with the bow. I suggested to the Professor, "Ask him when he worships God, does God worship him back. Then ask him what you do, when he bows to you. That should make it clear it is not worship.... or you wouldn't be returning the gesture."

As for the religion vs training to damage God's creation aspect:

There are 3 questions my daughter has to be able to answer (and she does)

Do we want to do violent thing to other people?
No.
Are there people who want to do violent things to us?
Yes.
How do we stop them?
By being better at violence than they are.

 

[Hudson69]

I've only been to two Kenpo (EPAK) schools and one only a few times. Both had the same style and flow of instruction. Neither school felt incomplete. They just felt like Kenpo.