Instructors and Humility

[Svart]

OK, once you add humor to the equation, "tacky" becomes funny, not egotistical. I'd love to see that purple gi with yellow smiley faces. I once trained with a world renowned Kung fu "GrandMaster" who conducted his semi-private training in a bathrobe and flip-flops, often while eating a bowl of noodles! (He was much more formal in public seminars). By that token, some day I'd like to get so good that I could teach in "bunny slippers" if I felt like it...and still get respect. But alas, I doubt I'll live that long!

Haha that is brilliant. Just see a small man in a robe holding his foot above his head in flip flops and trying to talk through a mouthful of noodles. Suddenly realising hes not wearing any underwear.

That is my dream now.

 

[jks9199]

Okay. So, I have a question (and this may sound silly). Many of you have said that it doesn't matter what the instructor is wearing. I agree. Or at least, I think I agree. What does it matter? If the instructor is wearing sweats and a t-shirt, or they are wearing pink bunny slippers, a gold lame pajamas and a pink belt, what does it matter if they're a quality instructor?

I think that most martial artists are a little eccentric. I like tacky. I like the patched up, camo gis, or the red, blue and/or black (I've even seen a yellow gi and pink ones for the girls) not uncommon in BJJ. It has nothing to do with ego (although you could argue that we have poor taste). My favorite gi of all is black and says, "Get Off My Back" embroidered on the back of the collar, along with a lot of other flair. It's tacky, but I love it. What does it matter? In gi class, we all wear gis, but it literally does not matter what kind. Out of practicality, we wear gis designed to stand up to the rigors of grappling, but if I wanted to dye my gi purple and hand paint smiley faces on it... okay, I'd get looks, but I don't think anyone would tell me not to wear it to class.

Ultimately, to couple this with my last post, it seems like you guys are all saying, "It doesn't matter what a quality instructor wears, as long as it's not something I deem to be wrong." For example, sweats and a t-shirt? Cool, because it's ghetto. Fancy Schmancy red and black belt with gold trim? Uncool, because it's... what? Not ghetto? With that, I disagree.

I think you're missing the reasoning.

The fancy belts, uniforms with dozens of patches, and so on aren't bad in and of themselves. The person who's bought into the uniform or patch or belt meaning they're better is the problem.

I wear a simple black gi (or sometimes a gi top & black sweats or BDU-style pants) when I wear a more formal uniform. "Routine" class is black sweats or gi pants, t-shirt, and belt. My black belt is plain; no adornment. I hope my skill and knowledge shows, whether I'm in jeans or a formal uniform. Because the belt itself is meaningless unless the rest is there to back it up. At certain events, I wear a white "humility belt" which is a plain piece of rope.

This thread started with someone describing a school where the instructors had adopted the belts traditionally assigned to higher ranks to separate the instructors from the students. The belt shouldn't do that, in my opinion. The SKILLS should. It should be clear by the conduct of the students and instructors who's who, whatever the uniforms and formality. Even in a class of nothing but black belt level students, you should be able to identify who's the teacher...

 

[Sukerkin]

You beat me to it, my friend. Well said.

In common with all Japanese sword arts that I know, we don't wear any signs of rank at all in MJER. As others have said, I would hope that observers would be able to tell who had 'grade' and who did not otherwise all those years of training haven't made much difference .

At our dojo, Sensei is called Sensei because that's what he is - I even call him sensei outside of class but that's because I wouldn't feel comfortable calling him by his first name (just like I never called any of my school teachers anything other than Mr/Mrs/Ms So-and-so what ever the circumstance).

There is a difference between respect given and respect demanded. There is also such a thing as treating the art with the respect it deserves - pink gi's and bunny slippers do not do that ... or at least they don't in the world I live in :lol:.

 

[Steve]

I think you're missing the reasoning.

LOL. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand your position.

I completely understand what you're saying. My point is that you are making a big assumption about MOTIVES. We can't debate intent. It's just not possible. We can only debate actions, and we've all agreed that it doesn't matter what instructors wear as long as they're quality instructors (the definition of which would be another possible thread).

We could just as easily start a thread entitled, "Instructors and Respect" and discuss why some instructors intentionally disrespect their students by not taking the time to dress appropriately for class. We could debate how some instructors wear sweat pants and t-shirts (or bathrobes and flip flops), intentionally disrespecting their students and their arts because they've given up and just don't care anymore.

Of course, that thread wouldn't be any more legitimate as there are tons of possible reasons other than intentional disrespect that a good instructor would teach in a t-shirt and sweats.

And if I ever dye a gi purple with smiley faces, I'll be sure to post some pictures.

 

[Sukerkin]

And if I ever dye a gi purple with smiley faces, I'll be sure to post some pictures.

ROFL - and I'll keep my live-blade wakizashi ready for you so that you can expunge your shame .

I'll even stand kaishaku for you if you wish (I do confess tho' that I've never done it for real so no guarantee's ).

 

[jks9199]

LOL. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand your position.

I completely understand what you're saying. My point is that you are making a big assumption about MOTIVES. We can't debate intent. It's just not possible. We can only debate actions, and we've all agreed that it doesn't matter what instructors wear as long as they're quality instructors (the definition of which would be another possible thread).

We could just as easily start a thread entitled, "Instructors and Respect" and discuss why some instructors intentionally disrespect their students by not taking the time to dress appropriately for class. We could debate how some instructors wear sweat pants and t-shirts (or bathrobes and flip flops), intentionally disrespecting their students and their arts because they've given up and just don't care anymore.

Of course, that thread wouldn't be any more legitimate as there are tons of possible reasons other than intentional disrespect that a good instructor would teach in a t-shirt and sweats.

And if I ever dye a gi purple with smiley faces, I'll be sure to post some pictures.

Reread the original post; it's clear that the motives of the instructors that prompted the post were simply to be distinguished from their students:

I asked him his rank and his assistants ranks to which he replied 4th and 3rd Dans. I asked why he wore a red belt and his assistants wore red/white belts. He answered that a black belt just doesn't signify an instructors position or rank and they needed a way to make him and his assistants stand out among his black belt students.

(One might wonder why a black belt alone wasn't enough... as the original poster did.)

The color, cut, style, or lack of any of the above in uniforms is unrelated to the student's ability. If you want to wear a tye-dyed gi decorated with smiley faces and a fucia belt... that's your call. In a traditional school -- expect to take some grief. In a less traditional school... it's your business. Different styles have different standards, as do different teachers.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I am amazed how many different belts there are above black. My family and I went to visit relatives. My nephew has been studying Karate for 3 years and wanted me to meet his instructors. When I walked into his dojo I saw a man wearing a red belt and two other men wearing a red/white belts. They were all younger than me. I asked him his rank and his assistants ranks to which he replied 4th and 3rd Dans. I asked why he wore a red belt and his assistants wore red/white belts. He answered that a black belt just doesn't signify an instructors position or rank and they needed a way to make him and his assistants stand out among his black belt students.
Note; He was not a Hanshi and his assistants were not Kyoshi.
Were is the humility in instructors today? When did ego become the ultimate goal rather than teaching and passing on the art? I see it in magazines all the time. Why do Black Belts feel they need to wear a different belt or have a fancy title to stand out? Isn't it enough to have earned your rank? I am waiting for the new bill boards that get attached to the back of your gi's that say, "hey look at me I am so and so and I have a whatever color belt and that means I am the man, bow to my greatness".
When did a black belt get degraded to just another colored belt?

Upon reading your first paragraph. The issue they solved with the belt is to make the teacher stand out. Pride was not the purpose, but easy identification in a crowd.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

Upon reading your first paragraph. The issue they solved with the belt is to make the teacher stand out. Pride was not the purpose, but easy identification in a crowd.
Sean

What crowd? His own students? Are they confused?

 

[terryl965]

Okay. So, I have a question (and this may sound silly). Many of you have said that it doesn't matter what the instructor is wearing. I agree. Or at least, I think I agree. What does it matter? If the instructor is wearing sweats and a t-shirt, or they are wearing pink bunny slippers, a gold lame pajamas and a pink belt, what does it matter if they're a quality instructor?

I think that most martial artists are a little eccentric. I like tacky. I like the patched up, camo gis, or the red, blue and/or black (I've even seen a yellow gi and pink ones for the girls) not uncommon in BJJ. It has nothing to do with ego (although you could argue that we have poor taste). My favorite gi of all is black and says, "Get Off My Back" embroidered on the back of the collar, along with a lot of other flair. It's tacky, but I love it. What does it matter? In gi class, we all wear gis, but it literally does not matter what kind. Out of practicality, we wear gis designed to stand up to the rigors of grappling, but if I wanted to dye my gi purple and hand paint smiley faces on it... okay, I'd get looks, but I don't think anyone would tell me not to wear it to class.

Ultimately, to couple this with my last post, it seems like you guys are all saying, "It doesn't matter what a quality instructor wears, as long as it's not something I deem to be wrong." For example, sweats and a t-shirt? Cool, because it's ghetto. Fancy Schmancy red and black belt with gold trim? Uncool, because it's... what? Not ghetto? With that, I disagree.

For me it does not matter what somebody wears, flashy, ghetto or that purple with painted smiley, as long as they can teach and be a BB. If people want all that gold on a belt have it enjoy it and love it but you better be able to back it up. In today world alot of these people are paper champions and not martial artist, sorry but that is what it is and people will critizes.

 

[MJS]

Then why issue black belts at all?

Quality teaching will always speak for itself, but you have to agree that many quality teachers will often distinguish themselves from the rank and file by other means, as well.

Using honorifics, bowing to the instructor, any formalities directed at black belts and not at anyone else. These are all different ways that they distinguish themselves. So, recognizing that, in some way, all schools DO distinguish the instructor, why not a new colored belt?

I agree with what Theletch said. However, I'll toss in my .02 as well. Some arts don't use a belt system. Some do issue belts, but they're not worn during informal sessions. For example. My Arnis group uses a belt system, but belts are not worn nor issued, with the exception of Black and even then its usually only during a formal session, and again, its usually just the black belts that wear them.

People, especially kids, like to see some sort of visual progression. However, just because someone is wearing a belt of whatever color, does not necessarily mean that their skill matches that rank, although one would think that it should.

 

[MJS]

Okay. So, I have a question (and this may sound silly). Many of you have said that it doesn't matter what the instructor is wearing. I agree. Or at least, I think I agree. What does it matter? If the instructor is wearing sweats and a t-shirt, or they are wearing pink bunny slippers, a gold lame pajamas and a pink belt, what does it matter if they're a quality instructor?

I think that most martial artists are a little eccentric. I like tacky. I like the patched up, camo gis, or the red, blue and/or black (I've even seen a yellow gi and pink ones for the girls) not uncommon in BJJ. It has nothing to do with ego (although you could argue that we have poor taste). My favorite gi of all is black and says, "Get Off My Back" embroidered on the back of the collar, along with a lot of other flair. It's tacky, but I love it. What does it matter? In gi class, we all wear gis, but it literally does not matter what kind. Out of practicality, we wear gis designed to stand up to the rigors of grappling, but if I wanted to dye my gi purple and hand paint smiley faces on it... okay, I'd get looks, but I don't think anyone would tell me not to wear it to class.

Ultimately, to couple this with my last post, it seems like you guys are all saying, "It doesn't matter what a quality instructor wears, as long as it's not something I deem to be wrong." For example, sweats and a t-shirt? Cool, because it's ghetto. Fancy Schmancy red and black belt with gold trim? Uncool, because it's... what? Not ghetto? With that, I disagree.

Let me clarify. I am talking just about the belt, because afterall, that is what I thought the OP was talking about as well. Clothing...well, that depends on the structure of the class. Some may require people to wear pants, ie: gi pants, sweatpants, etc. and a T shirt. My Arnis class for example...usually gi or sweatpants, although during some hot months shorts are worn. A T shirt is usually worn, the color usually black, unless its a school or Arnis related T.

Getting back to the belts...Kenpo has its colored belts until black. Black has stripes until 4th, then a red bar for 5th. From 6th to 9th, stripes are added and 10th having 2 red bars. I know of some people that despite being higher than a 1st degree, will not wear any stripes. Does someone need to know that I'm a 3rd degree? Do I need to know that someone is X rank? Like I said...I don't care. I don't use rank as the sole basis to determine skill. My belt has 3 stripes. Thats the belt that I was given after I passed my test and thats what I wear. But, when I teach, people should be able to tell my skill by what I'm teaching, how I'm teaching, my depth of knowledge of what I'm teaching.

Just because someone is wearing X rank, does not mean that they're really worth it. Again, its the skill, not the belt.

Mike

 

[MJS]

How do you feel about an instructor that insists on being addressed as Sir, Sensei, or perhaps Soke (instead of his first name)? It would seem to me that a humble person would say, "Oh, just call me Bob."

For myself, I take a few things into consideration. Is the person in question a legit teacher, someone who has put many years into training, teaching, etc., has earned the respect in the martial arts community? Someone like Remy Presas...I would call him Prof. Some 20yo 8th degree, who teaches a questionable art....no, he doesnt deserve a title, let alone the belt he's wearing. If I met Rorion Gracie, I'd address him as Mr. Gracie or Sir, unless I was otherwise told to call him something else.

 

[stickarts]

My view is that I don't worry much about what others do (to a point). I have taken private lessons in very informal schools where we all call each other by first name, and the next day I would walk into a very formal school and we are each addressed as Mr., Mrs., or by title. I have no problem adapting. When in Rome.......
I was able to learn in each environment. I also don't worry about whether someone wants to wear a belt, with or without stripes, or no belt. To me, thats their business and it also just may be a function of how their school or organization structures things.
I like to keep things simple. Inside of my own school I am Sensei because its important to maintain professional boundries. Outside of the school some still call me that and some don't which is totally fine by me. Ranks and titles serve their purpose when used propoerly, but beyond that I have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Balrog]

Were is the humility in instructors today? When did ego become the ultimate goal rather than teaching and passing on the art?

IMNSHO, a lot of that is the result of "Hollywood". Everything has got to be glitz and glitter, and I equate that with a total lack of confidence.

An instructor should stand out of the crowd, not from glitter, but from doing such things as leading by example, internalizing life skills, and not being "The Boss" but just another student who is willing to share what they have learned so far.

 

[hogstooth]

When I hit 5th, I kept wearing my old black belt with no strips till my grand master looked at my belt and asked if I was ashamed of the one he gave me. I took the hint and started wearing the one with five strips.

Guys, I don't spend much time worrying about who has what belt. Everyone knows who runs the class and things run smooth (and the one who runs the class demonstrates all the techniques! Leaders lead from in infront.)

Deaf

Thats exactly what I am talking about.
I am currently a Go-Dan (5th Dan) and I still wear a black belt with Kanji signifying my rank and style. I have the option to wear a Renshi belt (white/red one one side and black on the other) but my instructor and his still wear the traditional black belt because of what it represents. It's only my opinion and not meant to offend any one (which is why I didn't include the schools name or location) that wears anything other than a black belt. If you earned it be proud of it. The thing I was trying to get across is an instructor wearing a masters belt, not to signify that rank and accomplishment but to seperate him from the 1st thru 3rd Dan in his class. I don't know about anyone else but I shouldn't need to wear a certain belt to let everyone know I am the instructor. The bottom line is it's not the belt that makes you a good instructor/teacher it you and your years of blood, sweat, and tears and the knowledge that you have learned and earned that makes you the rank that you are.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

My renshi title is from a Okinawan gradnmaster and yet I still prefer sensei and my black belt to anything else. I prefer to let my teaching speak for itself rather than a fancy belt, gi or anything else that has made martial arts so commericial. I even have put on a white belt when teaching.

 

[geezer]

An instructor should stand out of the crowd, not from glitter, but from doing such things as leading by example, internalizing life skills, and not being "The Boss" but just another student who is willing to share what they have learned so far.

A couple of months back, I had the opportunity to drop in and observe a Black-belt class at a local Karate school. I didn't know anything about this particular ryu since I am a CMA and FMA practitioner. The black-belts practicing ranged in age from about 17 (?) to late 50s or early 60s (?) and a twenty-something man was leading the drills. Somewhere in the middle was a short, rock solid man whose technique stood out for it's precision, consistency, confidence and power. On closer examination, I did note that his belt was a bit more frayed than most, but other than that, there was no other sign of his rank. Still, to any martial artist paying attention, it was clear that he was the most experienced person on the floor. Sure enough, a few minutes later, he stepped forward and took over the class, relieving the younger man who had been leading the drills. He was, in fact, the chief instructor and school owner...and it was perfectly obvious, just through his technique. Now, that's what you like to see.

 

[Sukerkin]

Wonderful anecdote, geezer.

I feel the same whenever we have visitors to our class i.e. that sensei stands out from absolutely everyone else as being clearly the most skilled by a country mile.

I have no illusions that as shiny-penny nidan of a year or so that I am anything other than a base level journeyman sword-swinger yet. Sensei is a swordsman of many decades and boy does it show .

 

[Traditionalist]

I think it's what you're looking for and what makes you feel comforable as a student, personally. Our class is very formal, white doboks, everyone wears a belt. Our black belts our embroidered, but you are issued a plain black belt as soon as you pass your test that you can choose to wear. It takes a while to get your embroidered one. If someone came into our class with a pink uniform on and wanted to be a student he would be told to get a white one. I know that I want a traditional setting and if we were to switch to just tshirts and sweatpants I would not like that. To me, and this is me only, sweatpants and tshirts is for someone who is trying to teach you something in their backyard and that isn't what I want. On the other hand I know that our class is a little to much for some and they don't stay. Its all just personal preference that is why you go look at a class before you join and sooner or later one will speak to you. Whether thier belts make you feel comfortable or uncomfortable.

 

[Brian S]

Black belt's pretty arbitrary anyway. Isn't it? A red/black belt in BJJ = 100% badass. I don't know about other styles.

That may be the case now, but give commercialism a little while o ruin it,lol.

With the way that a black belt has come to mean very little, it's understandable to me that a knowledgeable instructor would need some way to distinguish him or herself. Add that different schools or styles are adding more and more interim belts in order to get the most out of testing fees and to give students more of a "sense of accomplishment" why not a "red is the new black" belt?

Everything does change and apparently there is no limit to ignorance and ego trippin'!

I've noticed that many styles put flair on their belt or uniform in some way, but is that really any different than just adding another color above black? Does it necessarily equate to a lack of humility? If that were the case, why all the rest of the obsequiousness that distinguishes the student from the teacher in the average school?

The red and red/white belts have been around for a while,but to use them in ignorance is unexcusable. But, since no martial have governing bodies we can all do pretty much what the heck we want to no matter how stupid it is.