American Kenpo not a complete art?

[Saheim]

I don't train EPAK. I do train Kempo tho and yea, I'm a total dick

 

[punisher73]

He is right, but not for the reasons stated. "Martial Arts" could roughly translate and used to mean "war arts". The warriors of the past had various systems for EVERYTHING that they did in combat, just like our military today. They would have learned horsemanship, weapons, unarmed combat, basic first aid, even swimming and other things not often thought of. So there aren't many, if any, martial arts today that teach everything you need to know. They might teach surface things for a lot of different things, but not full mastery of any one thing. This is what we see today, the particular weapon style or unarmed method being taught as a single style. As with our military today, training is prioritized to the threat they are most likely to face and encounter. They aren't going to spend lots of training time (in comparison to other skills) on empty hand combat.

He is wrong in the aspect that a martial art is not complete if it doesn't teach a spiritual side. Just because a person was spiritual and did a martial art, doesn't mean that the spiritual side WAS a part of their martial art. There are a few arts that were created WITH a spiritual side as a component of the art. For example, Aikido changed it's focus to encompass the spriritual side and the physical side was designed to help you achieve that. Many of the arts in Japan changed their focus to a perfection of character and spiritual aspect when they renamed what they did as "-do", replacing the previous "-jutsu" (technique) ending. Ken-jutsu = Kendo, Jujutsu=Judo, Karate-jutsu=Karate-do.
In fact, Itosu in his writings bluntly states that karate has nothing to do with religion and is not based on religious principles.

 

[drop bear]

He is right, but not for the reasons stated. "Martial Arts" could roughly translate and used to mean "war arts". The warriors of the past had various systems for EVERYTHING that they did in combat, just like our military today. They would have learned horsemanship, weapons, unarmed combat, basic first aid, even swimming and other things not often thought of. So there aren't many, if any, martial arts today that teach everything you need to know. They might teach surface things for a lot of different things, but not full mastery of any one thing. This is what we see today, the particular weapon style or unarmed method being taught as a single style. As with our military today, training is prioritized to the threat they are most likely to face and encounter. They aren't going to spend lots of training time (in comparison to other skills) on empty hand combat.

He is wrong in the aspect that a martial art is not complete if it doesn't teach a spiritual side. Just because a person was spiritual and did a martial art, doesn't mean that the spiritual side WAS a part of their martial art. There are a few arts that were created WITH a spiritual side as a component of the art. For example, Aikido changed it's focus to encompass the spriritual side and the physical side was designed to help you achieve that. Many of the arts in Japan changed their focus to a perfection of character and spiritual aspect when they renamed what they did as "-do", replacing the previous "-jutsu" (technique) ending. Ken-jutsu = Kendo, Jujutsu=Judo, Karate-jutsu=Karate-do.
In fact, Itosu in his writings bluntly states that karate has nothing to do with religion and is not based on religious principles.

Martial arts all tend to have a spiritual side anyway. Wrestling it focuses on work rate and the grind. BJJ it focuses on developing on the truth of you.

Sport in general has an ethos attached to it. Designed to develop people as human beings. For the most part that is why people engage in it.

 

[punisher73]

Martial arts all tend to have a spiritual side anyway. Wrestling it focuses on work rate and the grind. BJJ it focuses on developing on the truth of you.

Sport in general has an ethos attached to it. Designed to develop people as human beings. For the most part that is why people engage in it.

In both examples, the art had that added to it when it was passed to the masses and the purpose was for self improvement through the sport/MA. Go back to the roots and there was no care for that. For example, BJJ has its roots in Judo. Kano was influenced by the political scene that he lived in. During the Meiji Restoration, Japan tried to throw out the war arts of the samurai and become more westernized. To preserve the old traditions of Budo, many arts changed their focus from combat to character development (ever wonder why Shotokan throws a punch with the hips/shoulders completely aligned and the arm at a 90 angle from the shoulder and parallel to the floor? Has nothing to do at all with a good punch, it is aesthetically pleasing and helps a person work on perfecting themselves through physical motion) . Kano changed the JJJ he had learned and refined it to develop the individual so they would be a benefit to society. Karate underwent the same thing when it was brought over. Funakoshi worked with Kano into developing the art to make it suitable for school children and to enhance physical education, this morphed into what we know now as Shotokan.

I agree that sports have an ethos attached to them and most martial arts tend to have a spiritual side. It is a byproduct of what people have been exposed to and teach it to make people better. But, you can teach the sport/martial art without it just as well if your only goal is combat or winning, we have all seen schools/gyms/dojos that do that. Again, if you say "martial art" meaning a "combat/war art" then it does not necessarily need a spiritual component if that is your goal. Many arts do have that because they understand that people study and do things for different reasons and teach it as a method of self-discovery and improvement.

I am in agreement that the development of self DOES draw in a lot of people that want that type of activity, and I also believe that it is a good thing.

 

[JR 137]

In both examples, the art had that added to it when it was passed to the masses and the purpose was for self improvement through the sport/MA. Go back to the roots and there was no care for that. For example, BJJ has its roots in Judo. Kano was influenced by the political scene that he lived in. During the Meiji Restoration, Japan tried to throw out the war arts of the samurai and become more westernized. To preserve the old traditions of Budo, many arts changed their focus from combat to character development (ever wonder why Shotokan throws a punch with the hips/shoulders completely aligned and the arm at a 90 angle from the shoulder and parallel to the floor? Has nothing to do at all with a good punch, it is aesthetically pleasing and helps a person work on perfecting themselves through physical motion) . Kano changed the JJJ he had learned and refined it to develop the individual so they would be a benefit to society. Karate underwent the same thing when it was brought over. Funakoshi worked with Kano into developing the art to make it suitable for school children and to enhance physical education, this morphed into what we know now as Shotokan.

I agree that sports have an ethos attached to them and most martial arts tend to have a spiritual side. It is a byproduct of what people have been exposed to and teach it to make people better. But, you can teach the sport/martial art without it just as well if your only goal is combat or winning, we have all seen schools/gyms/dojos that do that. Again, if you say "martial art" meaning a "combat/war art" then it does not necessarily need a spiritual component if that is your goal. Many arts do have that because they understand that people study and do things for different reasons and teach it as a method of self-discovery and improvement.

I am in agreement that the development of self DOES draw in a lot of people that want that type of activity, and I also believe that it is a good thing.

I think a very big part of the “do” in Judo and Karate-do that Kano and Funakoshi implemented respectively into their art was so it could be accepted into the school system. Both were school teachers looking to make their art part of the formal physical education curriculum in Japan. Without the “do,” their arts probably would’ve been looked at solely as teaching kids how to fight. Add the “do” and you’ve got this cloud of spiritualness.

 

[Ironbear24]

I used to get really tired and down right angered by the notion that a martial arts teacher has to be some sort of zen Buddhist or something. Now I just roll my eyes at it, that was more of a cultural thing rather than a fighting system thing.

Martial artists also don't always have their **** together, we are all people and none of us are perfect.

And as for the kenpo comment yeah I am an adrenaline junkie and I have no shame in that. You only live once so may as well have a blast.

 

[punisher73]

I used to get really tired and down right angered by the notion that a martial arts teacher has to be some sort of zen Buddhist or something. Now I just roll my eyes at it, that was more of a cultural thing rather than a fighting system thing.

Martial artists also don't always have their **** together, we are all people and none of us are perfect.

And as for the kenpo comment yeah I am an adrenaline junkie and I have no shame in that. You only live once so may as well have a blast.

Just out of curiosity, which part of my last post did you disagree with? This post seems that we are in agreement.

 

[Ironbear24]

Just out of curiosity, which part of my last post did you disagree with? This post seems that we are in agreement.

One of my shortcomings is having fat clumsy fingers.

 

[WaterGal]

Honestly, I don't think any art is a "complete art", at least not that's any good. In my experience, martial arts styles/programs usually either teach a great deal about a narrow range of techniques, or teach a small amount about a large range of techniques. The more I do this stuff, the more I think the former is the better approach - like what Bruce Lee said about the guy that's done 1 kick 10,000 times. If you try to study everything at the same time, and only train a few hours a week, you're not going to get a very deep understanding of anything.

 

[Headhunter]

Honestly, I don't think any art is a "complete art", at least not that's any good. In my experience, martial arts styles/programs usually either teach a great deal about a narrow range of techniques, or teach a small amount about a large range of techniques. The more I do this stuff, the more I think the former is the better approach - like what Bruce Lee said about the guy that's done 1 kick 10,000 times. If you try to study everything at the same time, and only train a few hours a week, you're not going to get a very deep understanding of anything.

I disagree with Bruce lee about that say you train a front kick 10 000 times that means you have a great front kick but what if someone attacks you from behind where a back kick would be better or if someone attacks from the side where a side kick would be better or what if you're fighting in close range and haven't got room to front kick so need to use a knee.

 

[_Simon_]

I disagree with Bruce lee about that say you train a front kick 10 000 times that means you have a great front kick but what if someone attacks you from behind where a back kick would be better or if someone attacks from the side where a side kick would be better or what if you're fighting in close range and haven't got room to front kick so need to use a knee.

Yeah I think that quote is more in relation to the benefits of alot of practicing and drilling, and don't think he meant it in the way of just do one technique. To not train a million techniques a handful of times, but do a smaller amount of effective ones alot. And just how good you would be by focusing one's efforts and practicing a heck of a lot.

 

[punisher73]

Yeah I think that quote is more in relation to the benefits of alot of practicing and drilling, and don't think he meant it in the way of just do one technique. To not train a million techniques a handful of times, but do a smaller amount of effective ones alot. And just how good you would be by focusing one's efforts and practicing a heck of a lot.

Yes, the full quote is (paraphrasing). I don't fear the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. He wasn't saying you just need one technique, he was saying to master the tools you have.

 

[punisher73]

One of my shortcomings is having fat clumsy fingers.

No worries.

 

[JR 137]

I disagree with Bruce lee about that say you train a front kick 10 000 times that means you have a great front kick but what if someone attacks you from behind where a back kick would be better or if someone attacks from the side where a side kick would be better or what if you're fighting in close range and haven't got room to front kick so need to use a knee.

You’re taking the quote too literally.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well ok, I will adjust my earlier comments. Xue-Fu is the ONLY truly complete martial art that exists, anywhere.

But that goes without sayin’. So I didn’t say it.

Now that I’ve got that off my chest, you may all return to your regularly scheduled programming.

heretic,

Sinanju is the Sun, all others but shadows

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think people have a few strange ideas about how the spiritual side of martial arts manifests.

It isn't all contemplation and reading quotes with pictures of wolves.

Agreed. Though the wolves are pretty.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of folks get a bit mixed up on this, I see it all the time in Chinese marital arts. They envision a Taoist or a Shaolin Monk doing martial arts and do not understand that the martial arts of it is not necessarily the same as the spiritual aspects, moderation, living healthy, meditation that you see them do and/or why they do it.. But you also get into translation errors in CMA as well with this sort of thing. A martial art does not and is not complete because there is a spiritual side taught.

It can also simply be arrogance and trying to sound like a wise fortune cookie master too. Of course this also begs the question what makes him think he is qualified to teach this sort of thing

The way I look at it, the MA can be part of someone's spiritual pursuit, but spiritual pursuit is not inherently part of MA. Some folks want them joined, and there are plenty of instructors who offer that. I sure don't.

 

[TSDTexan]

The way I look at it, the MA can be part of someone's spiritual pursuit, but spiritual pursuit is not inherently part of MA. Some folks want them joined, and there are plenty of instructors who offer that. I sure don't.

Karate did not develop from Buddhism or Confucianism. In the past the Shorin-ryu school and the Shorei-ryu school were brought to Okinawa from China -Itosu, 10 precepts of karate. c.1908

This pleases my Christian conscience. If I need to go to war, that peace may be restored.... I need not be worried that training in my Itosu lineage karatedo is going get me in trouble with the Big Guy upstairs.

If I want spirituality... I thump my bible down and read, study, meditate and pray.

if I want martial arts, I put my mouthpiece in, read my opponent, thump him down to the ground, and pray I didn't go to rough on him. or meditate on why I am getting thumped down to the ground this time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Karate did not develop from Buddhism or Confucianism. In the past the Shorin-ryu school and the Shorei-ryu school were brought to Okinawa from China -Itosu, 10 precepts of karate. c.1908

This pleases my Christian conscience. If I need to go to war, that peace may be restored.... I need not be worried that training in my Itosu lineage karatedo is going get me in trouble with the Big Guy upstairs.

If I want spirituality... I thump my bible down and read, study, meditate and pray.

if I want martial arts, I put my mouthpiece in, read my opponent, thump him down to the ground, and pray I didn't go to rough on him. or meditate on why I am getting thumped down to the ground this time.

I don't necessarily equate spirituality with religion, though they are linked for those who are religious. And even if Karate had been entirely derived from a religion, what would it matter, so long as you aren't using it for religious purposes?

 

[JR 137]

I don't necessarily equate spirituality with religion, though they are linked for those who are religious. And even if Karate had been entirely derived from a religion, what would it matter, so long as you aren't using it for religious purposes?

People get weird about that stuff. A friend of a friend moved to rural Louisiana due to her husband’s Army relocation (is that the right term?). She was a yoga instructor wanting to teach some local women. They all said they had to ask their pastor first to make sure there were no religious conflicts. The pastor advised them not to, and all the women complied. Culture shock for us New Yorkers. Perhaps not so much for you North Carolinians (is that the term?) though.