Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[marvin8]

It doesn't slow it down for TMA because we drow our stance, Boxers widen their stance. In TMA dropping our stance doesn't mean that we make our stance wide to get low. It means we bend our knees to get low. Do get to a low stance quickly we basically stop standing and allow the body drop. Depending on how the body is being dropped, one may say "we are jumping down"

...TMA drop stance on the right. If you watch this portion of the video, his stance doesn't widen he just bends his knees.
View attachment 31662

Regardless of stance width or style, you want to lure and control the opponent before (changing to) the drop step (technique). A pawing jab is slower paced than a jab by definition. It is also less threatening. So, the opponent tends to react by coming forward and/or raising their hand(s) rather than evading.

 

[marvin8]

The counter to this would be a thrust punch. if you punch to my rear and then I'm going to use my rear hand to move that jab across my opponent's body, advance through the opening that it creates outside that arm and jab with my left. I think some of these things are easier because the size of the gloves make it a good technique. I'm not sure the way they jam that rear hand works with mma gloves or barefists.
View attachment 31664

It's a touch or push to control the space, not a committed punch. It's common in MMA and bare knuckle too...

https://imgur.com/a/9CLhqmr

 

[marvin8]

I can do either. When I do jabs to the body is usually haver I have countered their jab. Even if I'm going to be offensive with it, I want to trigger their jab so I can move their lead hand across their body, or so I can pull the punch so they are caught in a position where they get pulled off balance. It's a done deal if they go off balance, but if I can delate the return of the hand that I'm moving then I still have a good chance to land a hard shot to the body.

If I do a body shot to the body without the parry then it's probably a lie. (hence the reason I got called Pearl harbor), Me doing a body shot without the parry, it's an attack that I'm using to misdirect.View attachment 31665

You can see Tyson do this same type of drop (without the pucnh) in the video that I posted of him. It's a TMA drop. Notice the sance doesn't widen.

Countering a jab is different than starting from safe distance, luring the opponent to raise their hands and/or punching high, entering the fight zone and drop stepping with the jab. Floyd's wide step helps him transition from the safe distance to the fight distance and back to exit safely. Floyd's drop step starts from the safe zone, while your drop step starts in the fight zone.

In your method, you have less time to react off a jab which makes it more difficult and riskier. Your image only shows your opponent evaded your punch. Subsequently, the opponent can feint the jab and counter you as you are drop stepping.

Comparison of TMA's (demo) and Floyd's drop step (fight).

https://imgur.com/p0L95Ju

https://imgur.com/B0YVVVR

https://imgur.com/94Z4ssC

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's a touch or push to control the space, not a committed punch. It's common in MMA and bare knuckle too...

https://imgur.com/a/9CLhqmr

Oh OK. See that wouldn't happen to me. My rule is to always deal with the lead hand. I would never let that lead hand molest me like that. That's a sin

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's a touch or push to control the space, not a committed punch. It's common in MMA and bare knuckle too...

https://imgur.com/a/9CLhqmr

In "rhino guard" discussion, people asked why does your opponent kick?

No matter how long that you may extend your leading arm, your opponent's leg is always longer.

 

[marvin8]

In "rhino guard" discussion, people asked why does your opponent kick?

No matter how long that you may extend your leading arm, your opponent's leg is always longer.

The concept of controlling space is not limited to extending your arms.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It doesn't slow it down for TMA because we drow our stance, Boxers widen their stance. In TMA dropping our stance doesn't mean that we make our stance wide to get low. It means we bend our knees to get low. Do get to a low stance quickly we basically stop standing and allow the body drop. Depending on how the body is being dropped, one may say "we are jumping down"

Notice the bend in my knees. This is a TMA drop stance.
View attachment 31660

This is a boxer's drop stance His stance becomes wider to get lower. It's like doing a split to lower the body.
View attachment 31661

Tyson used TMA drop stance this entire video shows it well

TMA drop stance on the right. If you watch this portion of the video, his stance doesn't widen he just bends his knees.
View attachment 31662

Not just knee bend, ankle and hip fold, body stays erect.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I fight with power hand forward. People try to stay away from the power at the rear without realizing that it's in front. Even if I tell them they soon forget.



The solution would be to change stance this will put the power hand at the front and your face away from their power side. One of the benefits of learning how to fight in an opposite stance.
View attachment 31663

The counter to this would be a thrust punch. if you punch to my rear and then I'm going to use my rear hand to move that jab across my opponent's body, advance through the opening that it creates outside that arm and jab with my left. I think some of these things are easier because the size of the gloves make it a good technique. I'm not sure the way they jam that rear hand works with mma gloves or barefists.
View attachment 31664

All this. Being able to switch is fundamental.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In "rhino guard" discussion, people asked why does your opponent kick?

No matter how long that you may extend your leading arm, your opponent's leg is always longer.

Question, what if I can get inside/outside your knee before you can kick me? So many people telegraph kicks. I want my kick to be controlled and equal in retraction vs extension without disturbing the body or structure.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Question, what if I can get inside/outside your knee before you can kick me? So many people telegraph kicks. I want my kick to be controlled and equal in retraction vs extension without disturbing the body or structure.

If you can get inside of my kicking range, my kick won't be effective on you. Actually, if you just raise your knee, most of my kicks won't work on you. There was a period of time that in Karate tournament, everybody hops with one leg while using another leg to protect their chest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I fight with power hand forward.

You don't want your opponent to use your leading arm to jam your back arm.

In the last several fights, Muhammad Ali's opponent kept moving to Ali's side door. Through the whole 15 rounds, Ali did have any chance to throw his back fist.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You don't want your opponent to use your leading arm to jam your back arm.

Correct. This is my goal all the time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Correct. This is my goal all the time.

Should boxers also have this concern? What do you think?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Floyd's drop step starts from the safe zone, while your drop step starts in the fight zone.

And I keep reminding you that the safe zone depends on what your opponent
1. Can do
2. Can't do
3. Won't do
4 Will do.

Add kicking, sweeps, and foot hooks into the scenario and your statement about that safe zone becomes flawed. I don't box. I do kung fu so I must be aware of things beyond punching. Floyd's foot is already in sweeping and foot hook range.

Floyd is already in kicking and sweeping range. The "safe zone" that you assume only applies to boxing, even at this range he's well within shooting distance for a wrestler.

 

[marvin8]

And I keep reminding you that the safe zone depends on what your opponent
1. Can do
2. Can't do
3. Won't do
4 Will do.

We agreed to disagree. You disagree with the conventional definition that "safe distance" is where the opponent cannot reach you. I provided 4 videos that explained the same definitions and their importance in fighting/self defense.

Add kicking, sweeps, and foot hooks into the scenario and your statement about that safe zone becomes flawed. I don't box. I do kung fu so I must be aware of things beyond punching. Floyd's foot is already in sweeping and foot hook range.

View attachment 31673

The conventional definition says you are in fight distance when you parry a jab and do a drop step jab, because you and the opponent can reach each other.

Floyd is already in kicking and sweeping range. The "safe zone" that you assume only applies to boxing, even at this range he's well within shooting distance for a wrestler.
View attachment 31674

Floyd is boxing under boxing rules. The safe distance for Floyd is where punches can't reach him. If he were fighting under MMA rules, the safe distance would include kicks.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

11 pages of this merry go round? Just meet at Tony’s and film the fight.

 

[Fungus]

No matter how long that you may extend your leading arm, your opponent's leg is always longer.

But if you get close enough the legs are too long to be dangerous, so I think the "dangerous distances" are more like distance windows, rather than < x. So a Boxer meeting a kicker would feel "safer" to get in very close, where the kicker is less dangerous, and where the boxer is most effective. Some kicks work at close range though, but not all. I use this as well in sparring, some partners love to kick from "safe distance", then my best bet is to get in close, where they can't kick, if they back I run after.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Should boxers also have this concern? What do you think?

I've seen boxers use CMA type parries, where they parry the attacking arm to the inside, but it's only half of the opportunity. Some parry and punch but some parry and cover. The title of this video is Advance Parry so my guess is Ww'll probaly see more of it in the future. For us and others in TMA, this would be basic and not advanced. Someone in the boxing circle would have to let us know where this sits in todays boacing. Tim would definitely know.

CMA would say do it this way.

I see this the parry + Punch more in mma

11 pages of this merry go round? Just meet at Tony’s and film the fight.

Sorry about respond to that. I will say nothing else about safe zone. I asked Marvin what martial arts does he train but I didn't see a reply to that. If I knew what he trained then I can take that keep that perspective in mind when I respond. That way I can at least post video of what I'm talking about if there is confusion

 

[JowGaWolf]

So a Boxer meeting a kicker would feel "safer" to get in very close, where the kicker is less dangerous, and where the boxer is most effective. Some kicks work at close range though, but not all. I use this as well in sparring, some partners love to kick from "safe distance", then my best bet is to get in close, where they can't kick, if they back I run after.

Boxers would definitely be more focused on hands by default.

This one is for @Kung Fu Wang . Boxer dumps Kickboxer on the gound.

 

[marvin8]

You don't want your opponent to use your leading arm to jam your back arm.

In the last several fights, Muhammad Ali's opponent kept moving to Ali's side door. Through the whole 15 rounds, Ali did have any chance to throw his back fist.

If my opponent moves to my side door, I can move with them (action/reaction principle) neutralizing their movement. Back fist is illegal in boxing.

Should boxers also have this concern? What do you think?

Should boxers always be concerned to move only one way away from the rear hand? No. There are many reasons fighters should circle both directions from a safe distance. For example, you circle towards my lead hand I KO you with my lead hook. You are predictable when you only circle one way, etc.

Per Georges St. Pierre, "That's a cliche. It's not true... Just don't step into the danger zone [fight zone]. But, I am totally fine as long as I only step this way out of range [safe zone], My opponent can't touch me here [safe zone]..."