In these two videos, they do not "hold the extension of the punch." They retract it.
Dropped my sparring partner, so he says
- Thread starter JowGaWolf
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OP
OP
What martial art do you train in?
OP
OP
They didn't pose the punch, but they did hold it. When I say hold the jab out, What are you thinking that I'm talking about. Give me a time frame of how long the jab is held out when I say hold the jab out?
I get what you're saying here, we have this in karate as well. It's like skewering someone on your arm. This would be something I dont use unless I'm d*** sure it's going land well since there's slightly more recovery time involved. Keep in mind I'm obviously amateur compared to the rest of y'all here so I'm just going off my current understanding at this moment in time. One other issue I have with the punches frozen out in kata is that they're almost always paired with hikite, which implies pulling your opponent into you rather than keeping at a distance. It does however fit the concept of a spearing heel down blow as they're pulled off balance
OP
OP
I think I've only had three occasions to use this type of punch. The first was hidden, (my sparring partner said that he would have been greatly injured had he not had on the TKD body protection. He said he could fell it come through) The second was after I redirected an incoming punch., The third time was hidden. My classmate tried the same punch and he dropped his classmates.
This is the best example that I can give. So this srike is like the Tai Chi movement wave hands like clouds with a fist. Where my fist stop is where the bag was resting.. My sparring partner got hit with the bottom fist. This is the same punch that classmated dropped his sparring partner with. Which makes me thow think that maybe I accidently hit my sparring partner with a light version of this, without knowing.
The upper strike clears the lower strike stabs under. The hands are held until the energy of the strike is gone. The best that I could tell is that it was for a little under a second if the strike lands. If the strike misses then I don't want to pull my arms back because I'm closer to guard position so I would leave them extended. The opponent expects to get hit with the backhand stike but not the other strike that sneaks below. If this punch lands then it will have a high chance that your partner will drop.
In those two kickboxer and boxer videos, they don't "extend arm, opponent jumps into them" then "stiffen for the impact." They push through with their jab and retract it.
You are are waiting for the bag to return, not changing positions then doing a short inch stab. In the other 2 images, the other hand is chambered. Holding that one position with the hand away from their face waiting for an opponent to return makes them vulnerable to a counter.
If you transfer your weight (momentum) into the strike while the opponent/bag comes back, the collision should be greater.
OP
OP
If you move your arm from your center and reach out it is extended. A full extension is where you extend your arm as far as it will go and lock the arm. I've seen this in one of the videos I posted where a guy does that, but in jow goa we never fully extend the arm. Event with the long swings I keep a small bend in my arm ask hitting with an arm fully extended increased the stress that the joint must deal with.
The extension of a short range punch is not the same as a long range punch. Thrust punch in Jow Ga does not fully extend. There is a slight bend in the elbow. In Kung Fu locking out the elbow puts the person at risk for some cruel counters. The bend helps spare the elbow.
End of long fist srike as it comes across my chest. Elbow is bent.
Same type of punch different angle, Bend elbow. How far I expented the punch depend on the range of my opponent. If I do a full extensiton with my arm locked out then I'm going to injure or dislocate my elbow if my fist lands on something heavy.
Thrust punch in horse. Arm is bent not fully extended.
Arm is extended
Exact same thrust punch from the picture above.
Arm is basically in the same position. The reason why because is becaue the arm is lock and the punch is "spearing through" as my body moves forward. If I retry my punch then I loose the extra push that my body weight will give. I will post a video. shorty
If you do not do these type of punches then then you will have a difficult time understanding me.
OP
OP
What? that bag was stationary. What you are looking at is not the bag swinging to me, but away from me as a result of me striking it.. The position of my hands is the end of tmy punch not the beginning. The bag swings outward and in that time my arms are held in the position that they were when they struc the bag.
This is a long heavy bag where the bottome rests on the floor. This bag doesn't swing back and forth unless you hit hard enough to clear the floor.
The punch is also not a inch punch.
OP
OP
Here's the video. If you watch the thrust punch at the end you can see that my fist shakes a little. This is from stiffening my arm at end of the strike. Right after the strike would have landed.. The hand does not return. In application I would go into grappling hand or long guard. Or I can initiate a rising punch from there.
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OP
OP
Here's an example of Jabs that hold vs Jabs that come back. This was from 2022. Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what I'm talking about
Ok, cool. This does give me a much better idea. I'm on board with this. One of the exercises I do on the double end bag is hit it dead on (which will make it snap back and smack you in the face) and instead of retracting the punch it immediately turns into a blocking/deflecting hand. You hit the bag fast enough it'll snap back fast enough you won't have time to retract then block.
I also like what you said about the hand being held out just turning into your lead hand, the dojo I'm currently at uses this very often. The fist goes out, but instead of returning to the body, the body moves up to the fist, it should have the feeling of the punch pulling your body forward.
Seeing the videos definitely clears up some questions.
Fungus
Black Belt
Good point, agreed.
You end your 1st lead thrust punch, leave it out (without bending the arm), then you wait for your opponent to walk into your spear punch. You stay in the horse stance, shift forward and stiffen your arm. Is that what you're doing? How does the 1st thrust punch cause your opponent to walk into your 2nd thrust punch creating a large collision?
Leaving the lead arm extended is common with the moving guard, jab-jab, jab-cross, moving in, framing, head control to throw, etc.
OP
OP
No you are confusing 2 different things. If I knew what martial art you train then I may be able to point to something similar within the martial arts system, unless it's grappling.
Not for that tap of thrust punch. For that one I push into the punch and sink into horse using the forward momentum from the push to ram 215 lbs of weight into the punch. It's similar to the shuffle jab with the exception that it carries much more weight in the punch.
There is only one punch. This is a thrust punch.. You push or step into horse. You don't get into horse then punch.
The stiff arm stops the forward movement .
The first impact is my fist landing. The seond impact is the forward movement of my opponent walking into it. When you retract the jab, your opponent will follow the retracted jab. By keeping the arm stiff the person runs into it. The opponent expect the arm to give after the punch but runs into something that didn't give.
Thrust punches in TMA are typically done to the body as the head is too mobile. If I hold my punch out and you slip it, then I am in trouble. makes it more difficult to slip Plus, I don't have to pull teeth out of my fist.
There are 2 way to increase power for Thrust punch
1. push or step into it,
then
2 Sink into it.
This is what you are seeing in the vid pushing and sinking weight at the same time.
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OP
OP
No you are confusing 2 different things. I'll use football stiff arm as a visual a players rushes to tackle you. You extend your arm but quickly pull it back as soon as your hand hits their helmet. But this doesn’t stop the player's forward momentum as the follow your returning arm. They are able to take you down. Had you extended your arm to strike the helmet and left the arm out the that player would not reach you because your stiff arm stops that player from reaching your body.
That is the concept. Strike the stiffen the arm to keep it from collapsing and to stop or degrade the forward momentum. You cant
Yes but the difference is that it comes off a heavy strike that is meant to cause the most damage which. It's at the end of a combo and not the beginning. Like I wouldn't make it the first punch in my combo. In TMA it's usually at the end followed by a reset. I would compare it to MMA long fist overhand the way the throw it makes it good for one shot then reset. That too is a heavy punch as well..
In your "Hold vs Returns" video, the only difference is after the "Holds" you held your arm extended after contact was made. Both types of punches started from the same guard position, not extended. I was confused by your OP. I thought you meant you left your punch extended then the "impact is the forward movement of your opponent walking into it."
There are many types, functions and targets of jabs. The ones meant to cause damage are going to have more weight and penetration behind them.
In these 3 videos, the opponent is not moving forward, not that significant. Like your "Hold vs Returns," the punch starts from the guard position, not an extended position.
OP
OP
Correct. It's a regular punch, it just doesn't snap back. Like in TMA forms and kata. Some of their punches extend the arm and then quickly pulls the arm back, and some of the punches extend but they don't come back. So I was originally wondering if there is a significant reason for leaving the punch out.
I've taken a deeper dive into that to see what is being developed. I'm also trying to figure out when that pause signifies the end of a combo and when the pause is developing a technique, and when it is an application.
He's also getting the power from the forward movement. Forward + Dropping.. Everything in that video is in the Small Tiger Form. for Jow Ga. I was surprised to see that.
That form shows one timing: traditional block then full step (power generation) to throw lead punch. I don't see that sequence in kumite. So, some may question that kata's practicality.
The punch extension can be used to occupy the space/centerline like the long guard.
1. Lure the opponent to come forward with a long guard or jab.
2. Block or feint high, do not retract the arm.
3. Drop step jabbing low.
OP
OP
I forgot about that one.
1. Power increase from pushing off back foot
2. Power increase from dropping
3. and what you stated. Power increase from opponent moving into strike.
The only thing I would change is that I wouldn't go in under a long guard unless I could move the long guard out of the way. A Jab would be preferrable for me. I'm always pessimistic about moving into the power hand unless I can somehow jam that power hand so that I can interfere with the extension of that punch.
The gif that you created shows something that looks very Chinese, so my thought was to look for some older Karate. I think I found an example of it here.
And here
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
There us a dichotomy in fighting. In that to be good you have to understand the rules. Which is generally, when you punch. Your hand goes back to guard as quickly as you can so you can do something cool with it.
And we use the term high percentage and low percentage.
In theory high percentage methods are the best because they are statistically most likley to work.
But they are also what your opponent will spend the most time defending.
So they can cancel out a bit.
So you can be successful with something low percentage if their level of defence is less than your ability to apply that technique.
I do what I call the joust.
I throw a jab, leave it there and run at them with my hand outstretched.
It will work, not because it is good technique. But because it does not follow the rules of fighting.
And we use the term high percentage and low percentage.
In theory high percentage methods are the best because they are statistically most likley to work.
But they are also what your opponent will spend the most time defending.
So they can cancel out a bit.
So you can be successful with something low percentage if their level of defence is less than your ability to apply that technique.
I do what I call the joust.
I throw a jab, leave it there and run at them with my hand outstretched.
It will work, not because it is good technique. But because it does not follow the rules of fighting.
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