Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, there is distance deception. Your video shows him hopping in with his kicks and the pad holder moving the target/pad in to close the distance.

That is his attack and I knew you would say that the pad holder is moving the pad to close the distance, which is why I didn't bring it up originally. I was hoping you would see it and not make such a statement. This shows the kick moving past the pad. You can see his foot on the pad holders chest.

Safe Zones are not static.
Safe Zones are based on our assumption of what we think our opponent can do, won't do, will do, can't do. To thi with the sanda guy and they will still be well in reach with his striking.

Keep in mind. Power generation for striking is Move foward + Attack. The main goal of move foward isn't to close the distance, it's to assist with power generation. In other words the move forward is the attack.

 

[marvin8]

He says this is the safe zone. Here are the assumptions that I'm talking about.
1. If you are taking the stances that they are taking then yes. it is a safe zone mainly because you screwed up your kicking options with that stance.
2. The other issue is that this is safe zone for BJJ stance not for Striking stance.
3. For striking stance your legs are longer than your arm.
4. If you are measuring safety zone by the distance of your arms then you are going to get kiccked alot.
5. This does not apply to someone who has longer legs or longer arms going against someone shorter.


View attachment 31603

You're repeating the same argument that I have already covered.

Again, there are no assumptions in the image. Neither can reach each other with a strike or a kick without moving in. If they could, it would not be a safe zone.

Regardless if you do Long Fist, there is a zone where your Long Fist kicks cannot reach without moving in. That would be the safe zone for your opponent.

How long fist would exploit this logic.
1. Take a stance that puts our kicking in range while making it appear that our hands are out of range. For example. If the guy on the left lowers his stance, then the angle at which the arm stretches outward will cause what Drop Bear called "False distance." I would also make it appear that I'm fulling extending my arm to skew your sense of distance. This means you can determine the "Safe zone" as shown in this video and still get kicked.

This is something that I teach to students as a 1-month lesson and to people I train with. When I take a lower stance I appear far, when I stand tall I appear close. When I take a lower stance then I can push into a side kick. If I stand tall then I cannot push into an attack.

The other problem is the assumption that attacks do not move forward. If you are standing in one place, standing tall then this safe zone would be valid. if you push into your attacks then that safe zone that they talk about doesn't exists.

From a striking perspective. These guys will still get hit from that distance.

Yes. There are a variety of ways to create "distance deception." You can find some on youtube.

 

[drop bear]

This is not true. Long Fist exploits this thinking all the time. The name says it all. Your idea of distance is based on your interpretation and assumption of what you think I can or cannot do at that distance. In long fist, the techniques will often give the perspective that we are too far away to strike. The purpose of this is to hide the truth of our striking distance.

You make the assumption that this is the Safe Zone because of the distance.
View attachment 31599


Jow Ga Kung Fu uses smiliar deceptions with it's long fists strikes.

He still has to step. All the moves he is going to do becomes telegraphed by that one move.

The step.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, there are no assumptions in the image. Neither can reach each other with a strike or a kick without moving in. If they could, it would not be a safe zone.

How do you know that your opponent can't reach you? What are you basing that on?

 

[marvin8]

That is his attack and I knew you would say that the pad holder is moving the pad to close the distance, which is why I didn't bring it up originally. I was hoping you would see it and not make such a statement. This shows the kick moving past the pad. You can see his foot on the pad holders chest.
View attachment 31604

Both times Sanda guy appears to start from the "safe zone" then hops into the "fight zone" landing his kick into the pad.

https://imgur.com/crAs3je

 

[JowGaWolf]

He still has to step. All the moves he is going to do becomes telegraphed by that one move.

The step.

The step is done regardless of the distance.

I will still step even if I'm within striking range. You guys are thinking that the step is done to close the distance and it's not. It's done to drive the power. Really Drop?

It's only telegraphed if the person knows the kick is what follows. For example, here are some step combos
1. Step then front kick
2. Step then step
3. Step then shuffle forward
4. Step then shuffle backwards
5. Step then cut right angle.
6. Step then shuffle jab.
7. Step the shuffle hook
8. Muay thai switch kick.
9. Step Iron broom
10. Step Luk Choy
11. Step Pow Choy
12. Step over hand.

I don't see the same issue of something being telegraphed from a simple step. If step side kick was all that I did, then yes. It's becoming telegraphed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Both times Sanda guy appears to start from the "safe zone" then hops into the "fight zone" landing his kick into the pad.

He's not hopping into the "fight zone" You are already in the fight zone which is why he's hopping. If you weren't in the fight zone, then he would just walk towards you until he's in range.

Basic concept of attack.
Attack when you or your opponent is in range. If he were truly out of range, then he would not attack and there would be no side kick. The step is the beginning of the attack.

can stepping keep you in range of course. Can stepping get you in range? of course. But try this, spar with someone within striking range. The only rule is that they can't leave striking range and you can't step. Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[marvin8]

How do you know that your opponent can't reach you? What are you basing that on?

How or what I believe doesn't change the physics of the safe zone: The opponent has to move in to reach me, if he is in the safe zone.

The step is done regardless of the distance.

I will still step even if I'm within striking range. You guys are thinking that the step is done to close the distance and it's not. It's done to drive the power. Really Drop?

No, the sanda guy could not have landed those kicks without stepping, which fits the definition of the safe zone.

 

[marvin8]

He's not hopping into the "fight zone" You are already in the fight zone which is why he's hopping. If you weren't in the fight zone, then he would just walk towards you until he's in range.

No. He is in the safe zone unable to reach his opponent. Therefore, he hops in order to reach the opponent, which puts him in the fight zone.

 

[drop bear]

The step is done regardless of the distance.

I will still step even if I'm within striking range. You guys are thinking that the step is done to close the distance and it's not. It's done to drive the power. Really Drop?

It's only telegraphed if the person knows the kick is what follows. For example, here are some step combos
1. Step then front kick
2. Step then step
3. Step then shuffle forward
4. Step then shuffle backwards
5. Step then cut right angle.
6. Step then shuffle jab.
7. Step the shuffle hook
8. Muay thai switch kick.
9. Step Iron broom
10. Step Luk Choy
11. Step Pow Choy
12. Step over hand.

I don't see the same issue of something being telegraphed from a simple step. If step side kick was all that I did, then yes. It's becoming telegraphed.

You know something follows off that step. It is one extra move he has to make before he does anything else.

Which is why you force him to attack from there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You know something follows off that step. It is one extra move he has to make before he does anything else.

Which is why you force him to attack from there.

Something follows but it doesn't have to be a strike. If you make that assumption with me then I'll use it to trigger a reaction from you then I'll exploit your reaction.

Jow Ga has a technique that uses a step to trigger a jab. People punch because the think they know what's coming so the thing that happens isn't me Punching but me countering. The step for that technique is to trigger you. There are lots of things you can do to trick people with that step.

 

[marvin8]

I don't see the same issue of something being telegraphed from a simple step. If step side kick was all that I did, then yes. It's becoming telegraphed.

A step can be a telegraph. As you step into the fight zone (e.g., striking the guard) from the safe zone, you can be countered by the opponent in the on guard position. The opponent can step offline, move their arm, neutralize and/or counter your attack.

https://imgur.com/aPMP6qr

However, there are ways to hide your step, distance deception from the safe zone and ways to enter the fight zone safely when the opponent is out of position.

Basic concept of attack.
Attack when you or your opponent is in range. If he were truly out of range, then he would not attack and there would be no side kick. The step is the beginning of the attack.

Start the attack sequence when you are in the safe zone, lure and control the opponent until you have an advantage, then enter the fight zone and attack, see Cong and Koji KOs.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A step can be a telegraph. As you step into the fight zone (e.g., striking the guard) from the safe zone, you can be countered by the opponent in the on guard position. The opponent can step offline, move their arm, neutralize and/or counter your attack.

1. Yes I know a step can be telegraphed. I used it all the time to mislead an appoint. In the image below, I threw strikes, my opponent expected another round and got a sweep instead.

2. Your idea of the safe zone is incorrect. If I'm striking your guard then you are not in the safe zone.
The step here is not to close the distance but to maintain the distance. Things that I knew prior to throwing the strike.
1. He may jab which he did.
2. He will step back as I pressed with an attack which he did.
3. If he moves back and I do not follow then I will be out of range. Notice that the distance in his step back is almost equal to my step forward.
4. My leg is longer than my arm. While my arm is out of range my leg will not.

You are correct that it's possible to be countered, but just because someone counters doesn't mean that their counter will be successful. Here I counter his counter by stepping off center. The result his counter misses.

Again, In Jow Ga there are techniques that take into consideration that your opponent will counter, Not only does it take it into consideration. The technique is certain that they will counter. Muay Thai guy did the same thing the boxer did when I pressed the attack. If my attempt was to take my opponent down, then my sweep would have been with more force and it would have been lower to avoid the kick. But even at this height I was able to avoid the kick for the most part.

The opponent can step offline, move their arm, neutralize and/or counter your attack.

Your opponent can do a lot of things, this is what I've been telling you about the assumption of a safe zone.

Start the attack sequence when you are in the safe zone

If you are attacking while you are in a safe zone then it means your opponent isn't in a safezone. This is what I was telling you earlier. Do you ever attack when you know that your strike will not reach? I don't

 

[marvin8]

2. Your idea of the safe zone is incorrect.

No. The widely accepted idea of the safe zone is correct.

If I'm striking your guard then you are not in the safe zone.

The step here is not to close the distance but to maintain the distance. Things that I knew prior to throwing the strike.
1. He may jab which he did.
2. He will step back as I pressed with an attack which he did.
3. If he moves back and I do not follow then I will be out of range. Notice that the distance in his step back is almost equal to my step forward.
4. My leg is longer than my arm. While my arm is out of range my leg will not.

View attachment 31610

Yes, this is what I have been explaining repeatedly. In your image, both you and I are in the fight zone, because you can reach me. Now, do you agree or disagree?

 

[JowGaWolf]

No. The widely accepted idea of the safe zone is correct.

Lots of things in the past have been widely accepted and wrong. This "your" Standard Safety zone based on the distance that you say is correct.

This is a guy getting kicked at that distance.

If it truly was a safe zone then even this kick would not reach. So it's like I keep telling you. The safety zone is based on the assumption of what you think someone:
1 Can do
2. Can't do
3. Will do
4. Won't do

And to say oh he jumped to closed the distance. Doesn't even mater. The concept of a bullet is a projectile that closes the distance. Standing in the "fight zone" is a fist or a foot that closes the distance. If either of the guys could do a a decent side kick from distance then they would not accept this as their "Safe Zone" If one person was taler than the other, then this safezone would not be accurate. If I did this safe zone with Tony, then I'm going to get kicked in the chest. Been there done, been hit by it. I know when I'm out of my opponent's range because he walks to me or takes baby steps toward me without attacking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

.

 

[marvin8]

Lots of things in the past have been widely accepted and wrong. This "your" Standard Safety zone based on the distance that you say is correct.
View attachment 31613

This is a guy getting kicked at that distance.

If it truly was a safe zone then even this kick would not reach. So it's like I keep telling you. The safety zone is based on the assumption of what you think someone:
1 Can do
2. Can't do
3. Will do
4. Won't do

And to say oh he jumped to closed the distance. Doesn't even mater. The concept of a bullet is a projectile that closes the distance. Standing in the "fight zone" is a fist or a foot that closes the distance. If either of the guys could do a a decent side kick from distance then they would not accept this as their "Safe Zone" If one person was taler than the other, then this safezone would not be accurate. If I did this safe zone with Tony, then I'm going to get kicked in the chest. Been there done, been hit by it. I know when I'm out of my opponent's range because he walks to me or takes baby steps toward me without attacking.
View attachment 31614

Will you answer the question asked yes or no?

Yes, this is what I have been explaining repeatedly. In your image, both you and I are in the fight zone, because you can reach me. Now, do you agree or disagree?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, this is what I have been explaining repeatedly. In your image, both you and I are in the fight zone, because you can reach me. Now, do you agree or disagree?

We are not talking about fighting zones, we are talking about safe zones and the assumption that people have, thinking that their opponent cannot reach them. Because of this assumption we get stuff like this, which is from a BJJ perspective

You say that this is a safe zone and I'm telling you that it isn't for the the very reason you are stating above. Because a good kicker can reach you.

 

[marvin8]

We are not talking about fighting zones, we are talking about safe zones and the assumption that people have, thinking that their opponent cannot reach them.

Yes. Again, we are talking about your idea about the safe zone.

2. ...If I'm striking your guard then you are not in the safe zone.

You say that this is a safe zone and I'm telling you that it isn't for the the very reason you are stating above. Because a good kicker can reach you.

View attachment 31615

No, I don't. Again If a kicker can reach you, that is not the safe zone. It's the fighting zone.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, I don't. Again If a good kicker can reach you, that is not the safe zone. It's the fighting zone.

And again, you don't know if a person is a good kicker or not until they kick you. And that's what I've been telling you about the safe zone. It is based on your opponent and not you. You can create distance like in that video and think you are safe because it's based on the fact that "You can't reach your opponent." so the assumption is that the opponent can't reach me, and that's not true.

Stand 2 arms lengths away and an attacker will still go in on you. When it's truly a safe zone the attacker will need to move into range, either by walking or taking baby steps. But the fact that that an attack is coming means that you are in their range. It doesn't matter if they take a step or not.

If I'm 10 feet away then I'm not going to use an attack just to get close.
1. That gives away my attack
2. It's wasted effort just to get into range.

It makes more sense to walk towards you or take baby steps to close the gap. Which is textbook self-defense knowledge when people say "if people enter your safe zone."

Attacker walks in, shuffles in (baby steps) to get into range. He does not attack to get into range.

By the way. I told you that your example was from the perspective of a BJJ practitioner and not a striker here's the proof. He calls being this close the "safe zone".