Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[JowGaWolf]

As the opponent is in your "on guard" position, the logical step and what has been posted is that the opponent rolls back, moves his arm and/or baits to a counter.

They are rolling back after their guard has been struck. By the time they roll back their arm has already received damage. Here you can see that contact landed before the retreat could be made. The strikes have to land hard enough so that they disrupt any attempt to punch with the rear hand. These are not soft strikes.

Same concept of conditioning the shins but using the arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Striking the limps can also be done from a safer distance.

My experience is different. I have hurt someone's kicking leg so bad until he can't kick me anymore. But I have never hurt someone's punching arm so bad that he can't punch me anymore. I did use roundhouse kick to break someone's arm. But that was leg against arm.

 

[marvin8]

This is true for that screen shot. It is also why 2 punches are thrown. He would have been safe from a counter had he thrown the second punch. Jow Ga creates openings that have to be covered.

Your Red/Black sparring/fighting photo shows a 50/50 or an opening These Cong and Koji photos do not and end in KO. At the highest levels of combat sports, they delve deeper into these sequences and relationships by necessity.

Cong 1st & 2nd Contact.

Koji 1st contact.

https://imgur.com/mW20e5Y

 

[JowGaWolf]

But I have never hurt someone's punching arm so bad that he can't punch me anymore.

Do you train striking the arm?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your Red/Black sparring/fighting photo shows a 50/50 or an opening These Cong and Koji photos do not and end in KO. At the highest levels of combat sports, they delve deeper into these sequences and relationships by necessity.

Cong 1st & 2nd Contact.

Koji 1st contact.

https://imgur.com/mW20e5Y

I'm not sure what you are trying to compare. You wanted an example of striking the guard. As far as opening, Jow Ga Kung fu is always showing openings. Showing opening is the key factor that makes long fist techniques work. The openings are also not 50/50 because these techniques draw attention.

If you and I were sparring and I attacked your guard. Your attention will not be focused on punching me in that moment. Your attention will be on blocking the incoming strike. Your assumption will be that I'm trying to hit your guard but your head. My focus will be on hitting your blocking arm as hard as I can. You will be aware of this plan the moment your arm starts to get tender. Now you have 2 problems, your arm and the incoming punch and that's in addition to the other strikes that you'll be receiving.

Here's how it works a guy who did amateur boxing. I lower my lead hand to present an opening. This draws the jab as I enter.

My timing was off and the boxer didn't send his jab when I expected. This is fine because I'm still out of range of his jab. I'm out of range because I was targeting that jab that you see here, this means my face doesn't have to be in punching range of his jab. This also gives him a second opening to look at.

My next swing goes for his guard again, but he retracts his guard. I angle the punch at this level to present openings and to keep him from coming in. Notice my 2 punches are head level.

I throw another punch and present another opening which he takes. This time he will try to counter with a kick.

He does a front kick but it doesn't land because I step off center. The punches that I took were not wasted movements or bad attempts. They were were part of the plan position myself for a sweep.

Here the sweep lands both of his feet are offically off the ground,

The reason I'm showing you this is so that you can see what is done when my opponent "rolls back" I continue the attack. The screenshots are from a sparring session where I was mainly working on doing sweeps. The punching I did was to set up a sweep. My opponent was focused on incoming punches and not the sweep.

You may think, that this would not happen at an MMA level, but I would say that when most people make that statement, they only Raise the skill level of one fighter and not the other. If this was done in MMA then the same technique would also be peformed at an MMA level. No one would do an attack like this in a professional MMA fighting unless they could do this sweep at a professional MMA level.

How your opponent reacts will be determined by how the punch is thrown, where it lands, and how hard the punchs lands. All of which will trigger a response from your opponent. If you watch closely enough then you can understand what your opponent is likely to do the next time you attack with the same strike.

 

[marvin8]

I'm not sure what you are trying to compare. You wanted an example of striking the guard. As far as opening, Jow Ga Kung fu is always showing openings. Showing opening is the key factor that makes long fist techniques work. The openings are also not 50/50 because these techniques draw attention.

In your Red/Black sparring images the opponent (Black) is able to move back after Red hits his guard (1st contact), is not KOd and neither one has an advantage (50/50). That is what happens in Diaz vs Oishi. Diaz moves back, realizes Koji is trying to parry down his guard/punches, baits that tendency and KOs Koji.

In the Cong and Koji fights, the opponent is not able to move back before or after the 1st contact and is KOd.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In your Red/Black sparring images the opponent (Black) is able to move back after Red hits his guard (1st contact), is not KOd and neither one has an advantage (50/50).

Yes that would be a fair assessment from looking at the picture. I will need to watch the video again from that perspective. Sometimes the advantage is intimidation. A hard hit could provide a mental advantage if the opponent becomes afraid of the power he just received, or it could be a disadvantage. If my opponent gets hit on their guard they may think that I do not have enough power to do much harm. I've seen and experience first hand in sparring when someone's arm strikes made it difficult for me to maintain a guard that would be open to those strike.

I've seen it in professional fights where two fighters are cautious at first, but after one fighter has decided that the other fighter lacks power then it becomes a disadvantage.

This is an extreme, but it proves the point. A person who doesn't fear your power will think your punches can't do any harm. Like I said, this is an extreme. Most people who have tasted your power and have no concern about it, will try to put you away without trying to prove your punches don't hurt by giving you free punches at their head.

Same thing.

Hitting the guard is the opportunity to establish your power over your opponent. It can be a big problem if your opponent is not afraid or concerned about being hit by you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you train striking the arm?

I do. The 3 stars training is a must training for that.

But my intention is not trying to hurt my opponent's arm. My intention is to knock away my opponent's straight punches (such as jab and cross). I always believe that the best way to deal with my opponent's punch is not to block his punch but to attack his punch. You punch me. I punch you too. My punch include both defense and offense.

I like the feeling that "you punch me, I punch you too". This way, I won't be put in defense mode.

 

[windwalker099]

But my intention is not trying to hurt my opponent's arm. My intention is to knock away my opponent's straight punches (such as jab and cross).

Long ago used to do 3 and 5 star training....
Telephone iron poles, trees, including banana trees when available..
The intention at the time was to break the opponents arm, or what ever one hit with what some called "iron forearm"

This coupled with striking hanging bags filled with small stones, developing what was called "cutting arm," conditioning the ulna bone.....used as the name implied to do damage in a cutting motion...

Scabbed up the sides of both arms, the first time during the practice training,

hindsight 50/50 . probably not a good thing to do thinking of old age..

What teenager thinks of reaching old age,,


note: haven't trained in this way for a long time,
not really compatible with my present training...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

hindsight 50/50 . probably not a good thing to do thinking of old age..

I believe if you train this on heavy bag, the contact force that transfer back to your body can make your internal organ strong. It's also a good testing for "body unification". When you feel the shocking on your entire body, you then realize that your whole-body function as one unit. If you don't have body unification, the shocking force only stay on your arm and won't transfer to your body.

 

[windwalker099]

I believe if you train this on heavy bag, the contact force that transfer back to your body can make your internal organ strong.

Maybe

The heavy bag that we had was made from two US Army duffel bags filled with sand, gravel rocks on the bottom.

Must've weighed some 300 pounds.

If you hit it wrong, you'd scrape your knuckles on the corse canvas and start bleeding.
Everybody else would laugh, having experienced it themselves.

Another way we used it , was to swing the bag, allowing it to impact fist, foot or body...
this would be used to test body conditioning, body unification.

The training was geared towards "fighting"

The training itself tended to weed out those not understanding this..

small story

A young man walked into our gym off the street asking Mike, the head instructor.
If he taught meditation with our training. Was it good for health?

Mike said "if you want to learn meditation go to a church or temple.
If you want good health go to a gym.."

Here we only teach one thing."

"Fighting"

Everyone hearing this smiled,
as the young man left, looking perplexed



Should mention this was back in the 70s with "Kwai Chang Caine", in the tv series "Kung Fu"
having Shaolin temple flash backs every time he had to fight someone

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

to test body conditioning, body unification.

Another good way to test "body unification" is to push on your opponent's leading arm. If you can make

- his arm to touch on his own chest (collapse his structure), he doesn't have body unification.
- him to move back without bending his arm, he has body unification.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But my intention is not trying to hurt my opponent's arm. My intention is to knock away my opponent's straight punches (such as jab and cross). I always believe that the best way to deal with my opponent's punch is not to block his punch but to attack his punch. Y

This intention to knock away an opponent's straight punch or cross is not the strategy for hurting the arm. What you are describing can be done without conditioning the arm, as your arm applies force to a punch's weakest point. Attacking the punch can be soft or hard. When the attack is hard it will damage your opponent's arm, but it will also damage your arm, which is why we condition our arms. With the hard approach the goal is to knock away an attack, but it is also to cause damage. Physical fighting (non-sports) is about dealing damage, be it striking or grappling.

The key thing about this is that that you don't have to wait for your opponent to attack you. You can attack and deal damage to your opponent's guard. You can switch between soft and hard. Most people don't try to damage the guard because they do not know the techniques to do so. I'm not saying that you don't know. I'm just saying that there are more people out there who don't attack the guard. Attacking the punching arm is more than trying to bash it. There are certain areas on the arm that should be attacked in order to deal the most damage to the arm. Even if I want to punch the guard, I have to target specific areas and use a different fist to cause the most damage.

When the technique is hard, the goal is not to just move the punch but to damage the arm. The arm can be damaged either when an opponent punches or when the opponent's hand is in guard position.

Examples of attacking the guard. This one will take some visualization, but visualize a person who fights with his guard up. When the strikes land, the strikes will land on the guard. If you know this already then you attack the guard. you are literally breaking the guard. If the guard is weak then the strike will flow throw to the target.

Striking the guard: There is more than one example through the video but this is similar to how I would use Jow Ga to strike the guard.

You can see examples here of striking the arm or the punch

The one thing that I can say about striking the guard or an incoming punch. There is a correct way to do it and a wrong way to do it. It's not something one can say. I'll just try to hit the punch or use a punch to hit a punch. Things have to be set up so that the strikes will land and be effective.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Long ago used to do 3 and 5 star training....
Telephone iron poles, trees, including banana trees when available..
The intention at the time was to break the opponents arm, or what ever one hit with what some called "iron forearm"

This coupled with striking hanging bags filled with small stones, developing what was called "cutting arm," conditioning the ulna bone.....used as the name implied to do damage in a cutting motion...

Scabbed up the sides of both arms, the first time during the practice training,

hindsight 50/50 . probably not a good thing to do thinking of old age..

What teenager thinks of reaching old age,,


note: haven't trained in this way for a long time,
not really compatible with my present training...

I still condition my forearms. Most people don't condition their forearms so it doesn't take any monster conditioning to get the job done. Out of all the forearm conditioning that I done; nothing beats the iron rings. The most you really need is one or two. It gives great conditioning without smashing. The good part with smashing the arms is that you learn which parts of the forearm that you should use. Hit that never a couple of times and you'll learn how to not hit it. You'll also get a good reference point of where to hit your opponent.

 

[windwalker099]

Out of all the forearm conditioning that I done; nothing beats the iron rings.

For those using or wanting to use "iron" rings.

a little DYI project

Used to make them out of old car springs,,
Junk yards have them pretty cheap, cut them or have them cut. Put the ends in a vise to bring them together
and weld....

Caution :
To avoid skin damage may result from usage.
Make sure to completely sand down the weld joints,

Don't ask how I know this

 

[JowGaWolf]

For those using or wanting to use "iron" rings.

a little DYI project

View attachment 31567

Used to make them out of old car springs,,
Junk yards have them pretty cheap, cut them or have them cut. Put the ends in a vise to bring them together
and weld....

Caution :
To avoid skin damage may result from usage.
Make sure to completely sand down the weld joints,

Don't ask how I know this

ha ha ha. Are you related to this guy?

 

[marvin8]

I'm out of range because I was targeting that jab that you see here, this means my face doesn't have to be in punching range of his jab. This also gives him a second opening to look at.
View attachment 31556

My next swing goes for his guard again, but he retracts his guard.
View attachment 31557

Yes. You miss your swing against the guard and jab positions. Because, the opponent can retract his arm, move back, angle out etc. That is the issue.

I throw another punch and present another opening which he takes. This time he will try to counter with a kick.
View attachment 31558

Here the sweep lands both of his feet are offically off the ground,
View attachment 31560

Yes, You are able to sweep both of the opponent's feet, even though he retracts his kicking leg.

Trying to strike a guard or punch is more difficult and is open to counters from an opponent's on guard position.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes. You miss your swing against the guard and jab positions. Because, the opponent can retract his arm, move back, angle out etc. That is the issue.

It's not an issue. That's like saying that a jab is an issue if the jab misses. Not every punch lands. Not every missed punch is an issue.

Name one punch that fighters have never missed with. It doesn't exist
Name a strike that always lands. It doesn't exist.

 

[marvin8]

It's not an issue. That's like saying that a jab is an issue if the jab misses. Not every punch lands. Not every missed punch is an issue.

Per physics, the issue is your swing missed and the opponent is still in a position (on guard) to counter you.

In your clip, the opponent tries to kick you, he brings his feet together, then you sweep him. When your opponent kicks, he is in a less position to defend and/or counter your sweep.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

For those using or wanting to use "iron" rings.

a little DYI project

View attachment 31567

Used to make them out of old car springs,,
Junk yards have them pretty cheap, cut them or have them cut. Put the ends in a vise to bring them together
and weld....

Caution :
To avoid skin damage may result from usage.
Make sure to completely sand down the weld joints,

Don't ask how I know this

I have 10 solid brass rings, I hate how they tear out hair but they do work well. Noisy too, I never learned how to punch without them singing.