Domestic violence

[JowGaWolf]

 

[Juany118]

Hopefully this can provide some insight on the difficulties that people from the outside will have to deal with when dealing with someone who is at a high risk of being in and staying in a domestic violence environment.

The first video is an excellent portrait of how domestic abuse starts. We have this stereotype in our minds that an abuser is obvious, that right out of the gate they are clearly controlling, threatening etc. They aren't. Many are high functioning sociopaths and so can appear charming, cool calm and collected almost at will. This is actually their most powerful weapon because it's how they can entrap women who otherwise would avoid such relationships like the plague.

 

[Tez3]

The first video is an excellent portrait of how domestic abuse starts. We have this stereotype in our minds that an abuser is obvious, that right out of the gate they are clearly controlling, threatening etc. They aren't. Many are high functioning sociopaths and so can appear charming, cool calm and collected almost at will. This is actually their most powerful weapon because it's how they can entrap women who otherwise would avoid such relationships like the plague.

This is also why so many victims of abuse stay with their abuser and actually think it's their own fault, that they 'deserve' being abused. They 'know' that if it weren't for them their abuser wouldn't be 'driven' towards this behaviour. It makes it very difficult to prosecute or even get the victim to see things how they really are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is not my definition, it is my willingness (unlike most male martial artists) to accept the facts that different people are more likely to be the subject of different threats.

The second most common way for women to be killed violently in the UK is for them to be strangled, at home, by someone they know (partner/ex partner). I don’t see how a SD system can be “well rounded” when it completely ignores one of the most common ways for people to be killed. You are clearly happy with a system that ignores DV, as that is not your biggest area of concern SD wise.

I"m happy with any approach that helps people. Asking someone to be competent at dealing with DV before they can help people with other SD issues is like asking that all grade-school biology teachers be capable of performing veterinary surgery. It might make them better at teaching biology, and would certainly give them additional insights, but you'd lose the advantage of being able to generate enough good teachers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah, ok, in that case I would I say a few yes, but most no.

As most courses are run by men, they often are only able to see violence in terms of the types of violence that they and other men are likely to be the victim of.

That's a pretty sexist viewpoint you are expressing. According to you, men don't think about women when we think about people? Every male SD instructor I know addresses types of violence that are far more likely to occur to women.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The first video is an excellent portrait of how domestic abuse starts. We have this stereotype in our minds that an abuser is obvious, that right out of the gate they are clearly controlling, threatening etc. They aren't. Many are high functioning sociopaths and so can appear charming, cool calm and collected almost at will. This is actually their most powerful weapon because it's how they can entrap women who otherwise would avoid such relationships like the plague.

And this is what Paul is claiming every self-respecting SD instructor must be able to teach people about.

 

[Paul_D]

And this is what Paul is claiming every self-respecting SD instructor must be able to teach people about.

I don't recall saying "must".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't recall saying "must".

Look at the tenor of your own postings, Paul. You've made it plain that you don't consider it ethical for someone to consider their SD program effective unless it also addresses these issues, which are difficult even for people who ONLY address these issues. Let's not ask the family doctor to be competent at neurology.

 

[Juany118]

I"m happy with any approach that helps people. Asking someone to be competent at dealing with DV before they can help people with other SD issues is like asking that all grade-school biology teachers be capable of performing veterinary surgery. It might make them better at teaching biology, and would certainly give them additional insights, but you'd lose the advantage of being able to generate enough good teachers.

I find the analogy off but only because it assumes the two are equally straight forward, they aren't. Domestic abusers are not usually obvious until you are in too deep. Once the victim is in that deep they are either convinced it is "their fault" somehow because they have been subtley manipulated psychologically for so long and/or they are trapped financially. I just had a case regarding the later recently. No family in State (that will accept her) the local Domestic Violence assistance groups are out of money, the local women/family shelter is full, she is a stay at home Mom and her husband pays all the bills. Where does she go? On the streets with her children? Anyone who compares DV training and SD training (not you) simply has little clue as to how deep the dynamics go.

 

[Juany118]

Look at the tenor of your own postings, Paul. You've made it plain that you don't consider it ethical for someone to consider their SD program effective unless it also addresses these issues, which are difficult even for people who ONLY address these issues. Let's not ask the family doctor to be competent at neurology.

This is a MUCH better analogy.

Like I said previously, one of best friends is a lady who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, a Director at the local Mental Health Provider, contracted to be a PD's social worker, runs a batterer's program and created a domestic violence protocol that she was invited to return to her University to teach and is being adopted by numerous counties. She spent 10 years in an abusive relationship (largely emotional and financial) even though she is literally an expert on the topic. She didn't get out until 1. she started getting therapy herself and 2. she finally "came out" about the issue to myself and two other very close friends so we could give her continuous support and affirmation. Her family didn't even know about it until months after she walked out on him BUT only because they kept asking "why don't you try to make it work?!?!?! He is such a nice guy!!!!!!"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is a MUCH better analogy.

Like I said previously, one of best friends is a lady who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, a Director at the local Mental Health Provider, contracted to be a PD's social worker, runs a batterer's program and created a domestic violence protocol that she was invited to return to her University to teach and is being adopted by numerous counties. She spent 10 years in an abusive relationship (largely emotional and financial) even though she is literally an expert on the topic. She didn't get out until 1. she started getting therapy herself and 2. she finally "came out" about the issue to myself and two other very close friends. Her family didn't even know about it until months after she walked out on him BUT only because they kept asking "why don't you try to make it work?!?!?! He is such a nice guy!!!!!!"

This analogy followed a cup of coffee.

And this is precisely the issue. DV has two ends to it: pre-violence (truly, pre-relationship) and during the period of violence. Pre-violence, we'd have to teach them how to recognize a potential abuser. I'm sure there are some signs, but most of the information I've found for public consumption is far too generic, and often actually ill-informed. During the abuse, physical SD training may help them avoid the worst of the physical injuries, but it takes a LOT more than that to help them exit the situation. Even ignoring the situations like the one mentioned earlier where the woman has no place to go, it takes a lot to help them understand the situation in reality (rather than through the adopted filter that creates the self-blame). That's work for a therapist, and not something most instructors should be expected to be competent in.

Should instructors learn to recognize signs of an abusive relationship? That's probably a reasonable expectation. We could provide supportive environments and perhaps be ready to refer to someone competent to help.

 

[Steve]

I kind of wish some of those who have some personal experience in this area would post. We have some knowledgeable posters and real advocates for women who are members.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I kind of wish some of those who have some personal experience in this area would post. We have some knowledgeable posters and real advocates for women who are members.

Agreed. I've studied psychology most of my life, and have dug into areas like this a bit, but that means I have just enough information to know how much more there is to know before what I know is very useful. I'm much better equipped to help with depression, suicide, and balancing your values in your life. That and hitting people with a planet; I'm equipped for that, too.

 

[Juany118]

I kind of wish some of those who have some personal experience in this area would post. We have some knowledgeable posters and real advocates for women who are members.

Yeah, the extent of my training is to identify the dynamics at play so I can direct them to the right assistance. In terms of direct intervention it's limited to arrest and, if necessary, Crisis Intervention in the event the incident results in a mental health crisis. So basically I do triage and stabilize the "patient" until they can get to more in depth treatment.

 

[Tez3]

A friend of mine, a female MMA fighter posted this on her FB site this morning, it's food for thought. Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.

 

[Juany118]

A friend of mine, a female MMA fighter posted this on her FB site this morning, it's food for thought. Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.

It's not food for thought, it's truth. Sorry, No going into details but I have three best friends. First my wife, second and third tied, two other women. Call me weird and my wife's a saint that my BFFs can be women but your link is truth because they told me what they went through and then I have confirmation on a regular basis at work. Sorry but maudlin this eve and tired of the few here that thinks there is an easy solution because they are clueless.

 

[Tez3]

I dangle the words' food for thought' because there are many, actually very lucky people, who don't know what violence is actually like. I've never been attacked by anyone outside of doing my job and those type of things were because of the job not personally directed at me because I'm female. Many others have also not been attacked nor have they experienced violence so their knowledge is hypothetical, learnt from instructors who have also not faced violence for real.
There's never easy answers for many things that people assume can be sorted by 'making it illegal' or the 'government should do something about it', everything from helping refugees to getting ex service people off the street. The latter is a 'hot' subject here, most think it's a case of 'the government' just giving them a flat or house but it's a complicated subject due to the mental state of many of those on the street. Alcoholism, PTSD etc complicate them keeping homes so another subject many know nothing about but think they do.
However it's just more depressing stuff, we do the best we can and it more often than not does more good than we actually know.

 

[Paul_D]

Look at the tenor of your own postings, Paul. You've made it plain that you don't consider it ethical for someone to consider their SD program effective unless it also addresses these issues, which are difficult even for people who ONLY address these issues. Let's not ask the family doctor to be competent at neurology.

You are reading far too much into (and totally misinterpreting) what I said.

All I said was of part of self defence is learning to recognise the warning signs of an abusive relationship. I also said I believed people should teach, after all they address the threats faced by their male SD students, so why shouldn’t they address one of the biggest threats to their female students? However, at no point did I say they "must" teach it, nor at any stage did I say a system was "unethical" or derided it's "effectiveness" if instructors chose not to address that area of self defence.

Please feel free to keep making up your own versions of my posts though, clearly it keeps you entertained if nothing else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are reading far too much into (and totally misinterpreting) what I said.

All I said was of part of self defence is learning to recognise the warning signs of an abusive relationship. I also said I believed people should teach, after all they address the threats faced by their male SD students, so why shouldn’t they address one of the biggest threats to their female students? However, at no point did I say they "must" teach it, nor at any stage did I say a system was "unethical" or derided it's "effectiveness" if instructors chose not to address that area of self defence.

Please feel free to keep making up your own versions of my posts though, clearly it keeps you entertained if nothing else.

As I said, look at the tenor of your own posts. If people see them as derisive, and you don't intend them as such, that's a communication issue, and can be addressed from both sides.

NOTE: I'm speaking particularly to comments like the "keep making up" that was in this very post. Those things seem difficult to interpret as anything but derisive.

 

[aedrasteia]

A friend of mine, a female MMA fighter posted this on her FB site this morning, it's food for thought. Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.

Best observations ever. My experience and thinking almost to the letter. I'm sending this to everyone involved
in SD4W and MA4W. And I hope to hear from our MT friends here (both men and women), on this thread
and any others.

I'll have more to say later. I am swamped w/cases of abused people right now.

Tez, please share my gratitude, support and endorsement w/your friend. This is precisely what I would
compose and express if I had the time to organize my thoughts.

The inclusion of Kayla Harrison's experience is compelling and has been on my mind constantly during this
Olympic season. My MA friends (male) are enthusiastic about/interested in her 2nd Gold medal in Judo AND
either completely _un_ interested (or uncomfortable to the point of silence) in discussing her sustained assault/molestation by her Judo coach while she was a national champion. They are far more interested in
discussing her hard MA training under the Pedro coaches (after she disclosed Danny Doyle's grooming,
manipulation and abuse) rather than understand/learn by examining the content AND THE PROCESS of his behavior.

This must be MANDATORY reading for anyone, especially men, thinking of themselves as prepared and capable
of offering SD for Women/Girls, in any context.

I hope I have the opportunity to contact your friend and let her know personally.
w/respect and gratitude, A