Domestic violence

[Juany118]

Look dude. Its yiur faulty analogy. Don't bring it up and then tell me it's not the same.

I linked the article so I didn't have to explain the post you just responded to. So the analogy isn't faulty I will assume you didn't read the article in total because the article explains the addiction angle (using gambling addiction) and the secretiveness of the victims as well. I figured "why write a paragraph when link cut and paste does the job for me." Obviously such a logical train of thought was wrong on my part.

 

[Steve]

For pete's sake. You're smart and I'm dumb. Please explain your point in simple terms for me, as I clearly don't see the correlation.

My single point here is that it isn't unreasonable for a person who is in an abusive relationship AND who seeks out martial arts skills is looking for help. And also, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that training in martial arts, including the self confidence that can be built, can lead a person in the right direction.

The confidence doesn't need to be instilled proactively. It can be instilled concurrently.

 

[Juany118]

For pete's sake. You're smart and I'm dumb. Please explain your point in simple terms for me, as I clearly don't see the correlation.

My single point here is that it isn't unreasonable for a person who is in an abusive relationship AND who seeks out martial arts skills is looking for help. And also, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that training in martial arts, including the self confidence that can be built, can lead a person in the right direction.

The confidence doesn't need to be instilled proactively. It can be instilled concurrently.

You are far from dumb from your posts. I am just on a new "kick" to avoid my typical walls of text.

1. if they are in an abusive relationship the MA training alone will be of little help due to the dynamics of such a relationship because the psychological dynamics will make it so the skills are seldom, if ever, used.
2. They don't advertise they are in an abusive relationship in such a setting. Hell a majority of the domestic assaults I respond to are third party calls. This begs the question how do you identify the victims in your class you should be encouraging to go to the counseling and support they need to get out.

Once you are "hip deep" in a relationship like that you are rationalizing that it's often your fault. You get off on the highs when it's "lovey dovey" and ignore the abusive times like one addicted to the win>loss dynamic of gambling addiction. It is a sad and complicated mess that you would have to write paragraphs to explain and that is why I am linking articles vs writing myself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know. It seems reasonable that if a person is looking for physical fighting skills while in an abusive relationshsip, they are demonstrating a desire to leave and are looking for empowerment to do so.

If they are looking for physical fighting skills rather than a shelter or some other way out, I don't see a cue they're thinking of leaving. Perhaps they are thinking of surviving the next time? Perhaps they are thinking of stopping it (that is unlikely to work unless she kills him).

It does show a change from a passive "it's my fault" acceptance, so maybe it is a first step toward leaving. From what I know of the psychology involved, it seems unlikely a victim of DV would seek physical fighting skill as a solution.

 

[wingchun100]

If they are looking for physical fighting skills rather than a shelter or some other way out, I don't see a cue they're thinking of leaving. Perhaps they are thinking of surviving the next time? Perhaps they are thinking of stopping it (that is unlikely to work unless she kills him).

It does show a change from a passive "it's my fault" acceptance, so maybe it is a first step toward leaving. From what I know of the psychology involved, it seems unlikely a victim of DV would seek physical fighting skill as a solution.

I think the desire to leave is indeed starting to bloom. It would be useful for a DV victim to know self-defense in case they wind up with yet another abusive partner if/when they move on from the current one. (In such cases, history can and often does repeat itself. I know DV victims who moved from one abuser to another for a long time. One can only hope this would be the first step in the right direction.)

 

[Tez3]

I've known women with black belts, who can fight very well, have excellent martial arts skills and I would pity any attacker who tried it on with them YET they have been unable to 'defend' themselves from abusive partners. The problem isn't a physical one it's a psychological one.

However some good news from UK policing. Police train to spot coercive or controlling behaviour - BBC News

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the desire to leave is indeed starting to bloom. It would be useful for a DV victim to know self-defense in case they wind up with yet another abusive partner if/when they move on from the current one. (In such cases, history can and often does repeat itself. I know DV victims who moved from one abuser to another for a long time. One can only hope this would be the first step in the right direction.)

I would expect this attempt to survive the next one to happen between abusers, because of the self-accusing mentality that happens during the abuse cycle.

 

[Ademadis]

This has been a really interesting thread to read through.

There's nothing I can add that hasn't already been said, domestic abuse is a horrible and inherently psychological problem that has to be dealt with carefully. There are so many alternating circumstances to each case and as such it's impossible to pin one thing (martial arts) as the catch all will/will-never work solution.

However, there's a lot of mysticism surrounding the 'holiness of relationships' that I feel the world could really do without. Relationships are inherently selfish; you want to be with another person because it betters your own life. I know a lot of people who see being single as just waiting for the next relationship, and they see couples as the successful pot. If we swept away with all of that, perhaps that's one less consideration for a victim of domestic abuse. They don't need to think they've failed if they leave the relationship, they haven't.

(Obviously I'm not a fan of true/instant love , though I do believe in lasting love.)

 

[wingchun100]

This has been a really interesting thread to read through.

There's nothing I can add that hasn't already been said, domestic abuse is a horrible and inherently psychological problem that has to be dealt with carefully. There are so many alternating circumstances to each case and as such it's impossible to pin one thing (martial arts) as the catch all will/will-never work solution.

However, there's a lot of mysticism surrounding the 'holiness of relationships' that I feel the world could really do without. Relationships are inherently selfish; you want to be with another person because it betters your own life. I know a lot of people who see being single as just waiting for the next relationship, and they see couples as the successful pot. If we swept away with all of that, perhaps that's one less consideration for a victim of domestic abuse. They don't need to think they've failed if they leave the relationship, they haven't.

(Obviously I'm not a fan of true/instant love , though I do believe in lasting love.)

Well this goes back to the feeling of self-esteem. If a DV victim had any sense of self-worth, then they wouldn't need to be in a relationship to feel like they deserved to even be alive. For some people, the issue is unbelievably bad. I know a young woman from my last job who was on Facebook saying she needed a boyfriend only a week after breaking up with her previous one.

I said, "Didn't you just break up with So-and-So?"

She said, "I know. I just don't like being single."

I said, "What??? So you dislike being single so bad that you will be with ANYONE just to not be single?"

There was a pause, and then I said, "You free Friday night?"

Anyway, the core issue is their self-esteem. When a person has healthy self-esteem, they can be fine on their own. And they know for DAMN SURE that if they are with someone who hits them, that they don't deserve it nor did they bring it on themselves.

Having a healthy sense of self-esteem is one of the most important things in the world. That is why I worship the writings and methods of Nathaniel Branden.

 

[Tez3]

Well this goes back to the feeling of self-esteem. If a DV victim had any sense of self-worth, then they wouldn't need to be in a relationship to feel like they deserved to even be alive.

Are you victim blaming here?
I don't think you understand the methodology of the abusers, they use psychological bullying to break down the self esteem and confidence of their victims, in fact for many abusers that's the point of their abuse, to break people. many of these relationships start off seeming fine and it's over time, like brain washing in fact, that the abuser takes control and undermines at first then feeds off his 'power' of making his victim suffer. We aren't talking the old Friday night bash your missus situation here.
Yes there are some people who would rather be with the wrong person than be alone but blaming victims for their own suffering is not really the road to go down, we can all say 'why are they staying' but it's never that easy.
This lass was interviewed on television this week, she said she stayed with her abuser because he threatened her family and was capable to killing her parents. You can clearly see what he is capable of, he even threatened her while he was in prison.
Acid attack victim Adele Bellis 'felt face melting' - BBC News

As you can see as well an expert said that victims tend to have low esteem and confidence but then wouldn't you if you'd just had acid thrown over your face? many victims have been battered into submission, self esteem and confidence doesn't last long in those circumstances and frankly no on even you is immune from being abused, by the time you realise you should be out it's too late.

 

[wingchun100]

No, I never blamed the victim. All I said is if a person has self-esteem, then they would not feel they "deserve it." That's not the same as saying, "It's their fault for staying."

 

[wingchun100]

I watched my mother get treated like garbage by my stepfather for 10 years before she finally had enough and kicked him out. N matter how people told her he treated her bad. she would not kick him out until some sense of self-worth came bubbling up from inside her that she made that move. Therefore, that illustrates the point that good self-esteem is imperative toward getting a DV victim to realize they deserve better and get out.

Now if the scumbag they are with starts doing things like threatening family/kids/etc., well then that is a situation that obviously goes far beyond a self-esteem issue. That is a "you are dealing with a nutcase" issue.

 

[Ademadis]

Are you victim blaming here?
I don't think you understand the methodology of the abusers, they use psychological bullying to break down the self esteem and confidence of their victims, in fact for many abusers that's the point of their abuse, to break people. many of these relationships start off seeming fine and it's over time, like brain washing in fact, that the abuser takes control and undermines at first then feeds off his 'power' of making his victim suffer. We aren't talking the old Friday night bash your missus situation here.
Yes there are some people who would rather be with the wrong person than be alone but blaming victims for their own suffering is not really the road to go down, we can all say 'why are they staying' but it's never that easy.
This lass was interviewed on television this week, she said she stayed with her abuser because he threatened her family and was capable to killing her parents. You can clearly see what he is capable of, he even threatened her while he was in prison.
Acid attack victim Adele Bellis 'felt face melting' - BBC News

As you can see as well an expert said that victims tend to have low esteem and confidence but then wouldn't you if you'd just had acid thrown over your face? many victims have been battered into submission, self esteem and confidence doesn't last long in those circumstances and frankly no on even you is immune from being abused, by the time you realise you should be out it's too late.

NONONO We are NOT Victim blaming.

That is NOT what's being said.

Longer reply inc..

 

[wingchun100]

NONONO We are NOT Victim blaming.

That is NOT what's being said.

Longer reply inc..

That post did not mean all of us. It was specifically related to my self-esteem post.

 

[wingchun100]

Are you victim blaming here?
I don't think you understand the methodology of the abusers, they use psychological bullying to break down the self esteem and confidence of their victims, in fact for many abusers that's the point of their abuse, to break people. many of these relationships start off seeming fine and it's over time, like brain washing in fact, that the abuser takes control and undermines at first then feeds off his 'power' of making his victim suffer. We aren't talking the old Friday night bash your missus situation here.
Yes there are some people who would rather be with the wrong person than be alone but blaming victims for their own suffering is not really the road to go down, we can all say 'why are they staying' but it's never that easy.
This lass was interviewed on television this week, she said she stayed with her abuser because he threatened her family and was capable to killing her parents. You can clearly see what he is capable of, he even threatened her while he was in prison.
Acid attack victim Adele Bellis 'felt face melting' - BBC News

As you can see as well an expert said that victims tend to have low esteem and confidence but then wouldn't you if you'd just had acid thrown over your face? many victims have been battered into submission, self esteem and confidence doesn't last long in those circumstances and frankly no on even you is immune from being abused, by the time you realise you should be out it's too late.

I apologize if my post came off insensitve. Having watched my stepfather tear my mother down (Although he never got physically abusive, thankfully), I am one of the most empathetic people when it comes to the plight of DV victims.

I meant well, although I know that means nothing since perception is everything, and you took it as victim blaming.

 

[Tez3]

NONONO We are NOT Victim blaming.

That is NOT what's being said.

Longer reply inc..

I didn't say YOU were, the tone however of the post I quoted gave the strong impression that he was. It was more than about just relationships he said 'DV victims' not people getting into relationships that weren't right just because they didn't want to be alone.

Well this goes back to the feeling of self-esteem. If a DV victim had any sense of self-worth,

 

[Tez3]

I apologize if my post came off insensitve. Having watched my stepfather tear my mother down (Although he never got physically abusive, thankfully), I am one of the most empathetic people when it comes to the plight of DV victims.

I meant well, although I know that means nothing since perception is everything, and you took it as victim blaming.

I think if you hadn't said 'DV victim' it wouldn't have come across as insensitive.
Was your mother a confident person before she met your step father? Often people are and it's that self confidence and self esteem that some abusers like to destroy, it's not always a case of people looking for any relationship because it's better than being alone.

 

[wingchun100]

I didn't say YOU were, the tone however of the post I quoted gave the strong impression that he was. It was more than about just relationships he said 'DV victims' not people getting into relationships that weren't right just because they didn't want to be alone.

I realize what I did wrong now. I mixed the messages of my post by talking about the former coworker who dated just to date someone. All I meant was that if she had better self-esteem, then she would not feel like she HAD to be with someone just to validate herself. However, she was NOT a DV victim. I should have split it into two different posts, because it was about two different things.

One thing was people who serial date because that is the only way they get a sense of self-worth.

The other thing is what this thread is discussing, which of course is victims of DV.

 

[Ademadis]

Are you victim blaming here?

^Longer reply

What I was relating to is the particular view that people feel they 'have to' make relationships work because society as a whole places large significance on relationships, views on 'Love' and why victims should stay. This does not mean it's the victim's fault for choosing to remain with their respective abuser.

What it does mean is there is significant pressure to endure relationships AS they get worse, which fits entirely with the methodology you specify. People believe relationships are infallible to a certain extent and that once forged they can't be broken. Well people change. And if that was a more accepted viewpoint; that it's completely ok to end a relationship because things have become different, it would also have a positive influence on abusive relationships.

It takes a lot of courage and positive self-esteem to keep yourself safe when you're romancing people, you're deliberately subjecting yourself and your feelings to the influence and manipulation of another person. That's why it's SO important to stress that you need to look after yourself first and foremost as well. But that doesn't mean if the victim doesn't have this self-esteem then it's their fault for not breaking out of the relationship. Sometimes it's down right dangerous and impossible to do so.

It is not the victims fault, it never is and never will be.

 

[wingchun100]

I think if you hadn't said 'DV victim' it wouldn't have come across as insensitive.
Was your mother a confident person before she met your step father? Often people are and it's that self confidence and self esteem that some abusers like to destroy, it's not always a case of people looking for any relationship because it's better than being alone.

See my follow-up for how I screwed up.

And I was very young when she met my stepfather (only 6), so I have no memories stretching back far enough to let me answer your question. However, based on what I know about DV victims and their abusers, I'd say she must have been not all that confident, and he moved in for the kill.