Dojo / Dojang and religious symbols

[CanuckMA]

Boar Man and Michigan,

The difference is that wearing a patch, or a necklace is displaying your religion. The head covering, be it for a Muslim woman, Jewish man or Sikh is not a display, it is a requirement . I wear a kipa while training. Not to advertise my religion, but because I have to.

It is, hopefully, within White Belt's rights to set a standard, but to argue that allowing a head dress would force him to allow patches, etc. is not an argument I'd care to use. Don't use the safety issues either. White Belt, argue about uniformity only. It is easy to defend yourself with the dress code argument. If you argue religious display or safety and it comes down to a lawsuit, you have nothing to stand on.

 

[white belt]

The headscarf is a display as well as functional attire. It is meant to display conformity to the laws and teachings of Allah. In the privacy of her home, with only her immediate family present, it comes off.

Don't think of me as an antagonist for this next question. Kipas aren't worn swimming or in the shower, correct?

Thanks.

 

[CanuckMA]

The headscarf is a display as well as functional attire. It is meant to display conformity to the laws and teachings of Allah. In the privacy of her home, with only her immediate family present, it comes off.

Don't think of me as an antagonist for this next question. Kipas aren't worn swimming or in the shower, correct?

Thanks.

The head scarf is a requirement of modesty. One does not need to have the same degree of modesty in ones home.

There are a number of rules regarding where and when a kipa is worn. I take it off while showering and sleeping. I do not wear it while playing hockey or baseball as the helmet and hat fulfill the requirements for covering my head. I wear a swim cap while swimming.

 

[white belt]

Thank you. I haven't any friends or business contacts that exercise that part of their faith and wear a kipa. The subject, as far as requirements, has never been brought up in conversation around me.

Tuesday is a kids night at the Dojang. May be another opportunity to discuss things with the Muslim father.

Spoke to a fellow martial artist today who is also a human resources director for a large national corporation. He confirmed that my not allowing a prescedent safeguards me from successful litigation. This dovetails with what several others have shared with me who have studied business law for their degrees.

Any other suggestions, please post.

Thanks.

 

[CanuckMA]

I think you'll be OK. For obvious reasons, I don't agree with your decision, but it's your decision. Just justify it on a dress code level. Don't try to make it something else, especially something you are ant 150% sure you can support.

Good Luck.

 

[bignick]

well, again...keep us informed of how the situation turns out...i've been watching this thread...and it's brought a great number of issues for schools to consider...

 

[Flatlander]

Every now and then one of these seriously useful reference threads pops up in here. Good stuff.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Boar Man and Michigan,

The difference is that wearing a patch, or a necklace is displaying your religion. The head covering, be it for a Muslim woman, Jewish man or Sikh is not a display, it is a requirement . I wear a kipa while training. Not to advertise my religion, but because I have to.

It is, hopefully, within White Belt's rights to set a standard, but to argue that allowing a head dress would force him to allow patches, etc. is not an argument I'd care to use. Don't use the safety issues either. White Belt, argue about uniformity only. It is easy to defend yourself with the dress code argument. If you argue religious display or safety and it comes down to a lawsuit, you have nothing to stand on.

CanuckMA

I agree with you about the patches/necklace, however to other students it might seem that you are allowing an religious symbol to be worn. White Belt stated that he had some other students that might try and force the issue (I thought, if I'm mistaken than I apologize).

Anyway I too think the uniform policy is the best defense. But again it depends upon the way the school is structured as far as I'm concerned. If you allow the students to wear necklaces, patches, colored uniforms (different colors in the same classes) ect. ect. than the head covering should be allowed. If not, and you are keeping everyone to the same dress code than it shouldn't (if this is what the owner and instructor decides).

Dave Lowery (columnist for BB mag) wrote about this same type of thing (possibly several years ago) about people of different faiths wanting to not bow to the flag, or to the shrine area of a school (or something). And it was from him that I got the uniformity input and I had to agree with him. However I wasn't brought up that way in my training, but I think the point of view is important and valid, so I brought it up.

With respect
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

I apologize for not addressing the subject of private lessons sooner. With my circumstances it just is not feasable. I have had other opportunities to teach privately but, I just don't have the time to take from my personal life what with a day career and a family.

Thanks for the suggestions.

White Belt

I understand about the time issue with day career and family. Just trying to offer suggestions.

I think you should explain to the father about the uniformity issue, and then maybe offer to let his wife wear head gear in class. If she desires your teaching instruction enough than the little discomfort in wear the head gear ought not to run her and her family off. I have practiced before with little kids who had head injuries who in order to train had to wear head gear throughtout the class and they could do it. You could even modify the gear for that matter to possibly make it more comfortable for her.

And it might be too that the woman doesn't want to do this, but the husband wants her to take the class. Or she wants to take the class and her husband doesn't unless you comfrom to his (their) standards. Either way I think you need to try and compromise (and communicate) to show them that you are trying to work with them and are sympathic to their beliefs and needs, but that you have certain standards/rules for your class and you are beholden to them as they are to their beliefs.

with respect
Mark

 

[pakua]

I've noticed a couple of Muslim women wearing headscarves in our Tai Chi class, but can't say one way or the other about the Kobujutsu class at the same school which is run by the same teacher (Sifu one moment, Sensei the next!)

South Africa tends to have a fairly relaxed attitude to religious and cultural expression nowadays, hardly surprising after centuries of the other extreme. I guess that Sensei/Sifu, himself the victim of apartheid discrimination years ago, would be happy for scarves in the Kobujutsu class unless he was genuinely concerned from the safety p.o.v.