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Cydone said:
Mr. Green, please note. TW
Mr. Green, please note. TW
Tigerwoman keep reading...
"This was afterwords, when he held a speech or what you want to call it, about the form, and the philosophy behind, how we should live our lifes and all. Most very good and true to the system, and Hapkido as well. It was in this speech though, that came bits and pieces of God. Stories from the bible as stories from Buddhism was also refered to."
after physical training, but still a part of the seminar.
"This was afterwords, when he held a speech or what you want to call it, about the form, and the philosophy behind, how we should live our lifes and all. Most very good and true to the system, and Hapkido as well. It was in this speech though, that came bits and pieces of God. Stories from the bible as stories from Buddhism was also refered to."
after physical training, but still a part of the seminar.
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Mr. Green.
It was after a training session on the weekend, not a seminar. Apparently the GM is his instructor or is there at the school during his training sessions. Yes, I read the whole thing... it was after the training session but since he is a GM, it is only respectful to listen if he wants to talk to the students. That is why Cydone said "in defense of the GM". He had a choice apparently, but most would not leave out of respect at least until they knew what he had to say.
And that is the reason, I think, Cydone should talk with him and express his view that religious viewpoints should be excluded from formal teaching. Then, if the GM keeps on with his "talks" after class, Cydone does have the option of not staying and listening because his objection has been discussed and is known by the GM. TW
It was after a training session on the weekend, not a seminar. Apparently the GM is his instructor or is there at the school during his training sessions. Yes, I read the whole thing... it was after the training session but since he is a GM, it is only respectful to listen if he wants to talk to the students. That is why Cydone said "in defense of the GM". He had a choice apparently, but most would not leave out of respect at least until they knew what he had to say.
And that is the reason, I think, Cydone should talk with him and express his view that religious viewpoints should be excluded from formal teaching. Then, if the GM keeps on with his "talks" after class, Cydone does have the option of not staying and listening because his objection has been discussed and is known by the GM. TW
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Cydone
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- #24
Please note that the GM I have only seen twice in my life. He is not involved in everyday (twice a week) training. So I guess avoiding htese situations wouldnt be a problem.
I have been thinking a great deal about this, and I have come to a somewhat temporary conclusion, that it doesnt matter where you go, you will always run into things you dont like, such is life. On top of that, as Bruce Lee said, one should not restrict oneself to the confines of one system, but take what makes sense to you, what works for you.
I took a Wing Tsun (Wing Chun) class last night, and it was great. This was a at the WT Center of Scandinavia, and I can actualy train 2 times a day every single day of the week. Quite impressive. And I must say, I was told more in those 2 hours of training, about the theory of fighting, than I have learned in many years of Hapkido training. But then again, Hapkido is not so much an external fight as it is internal.
I think its important to loosen the mind, not only towards Martial Arts, but also towards life. Not to think in static confined systems, but to think in dynamics and change.
Thanks for your inputs, much apreciated.
I have been thinking a great deal about this, and I have come to a somewhat temporary conclusion, that it doesnt matter where you go, you will always run into things you dont like, such is life. On top of that, as Bruce Lee said, one should not restrict oneself to the confines of one system, but take what makes sense to you, what works for you.
I took a Wing Tsun (Wing Chun) class last night, and it was great. This was a at the WT Center of Scandinavia, and I can actualy train 2 times a day every single day of the week. Quite impressive. And I must say, I was told more in those 2 hours of training, about the theory of fighting, than I have learned in many years of Hapkido training. But then again, Hapkido is not so much an external fight as it is internal.
I think its important to loosen the mind, not only towards Martial Arts, but also towards life. Not to think in static confined systems, but to think in dynamics and change.
Thanks for your inputs, much apreciated.
OP
Tae Kwon Doughboy
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I'll leave the religion topic alone having lived it with my dad. I can see how it could be a problem.
I could go to class four times a week. Two are normal classes and two are tournament training. It is also 30 miles away and I can't afford the gas or time right now. I have no desire to compete so I go to the normal classes.
I'd be lost if I didn't practice on my own. I also gained access to a vacant building close to hom that I can use for free. I generally practice there two times a week, sometimes with a BB friend. I find it works out very well for me. I work on what the master wants two nights a week and what I know I need the other two. Some would view me a physically challenged so I need the time.
I could go to class four times a week. Two are normal classes and two are tournament training. It is also 30 miles away and I can't afford the gas or time right now. I have no desire to compete so I go to the normal classes.
I'd be lost if I didn't practice on my own. I also gained access to a vacant building close to hom that I can use for free. I generally practice there two times a week, sometimes with a BB friend. I find it works out very well for me. I work on what the master wants two nights a week and what I know I need the other two. Some would view me a physically challenged so I need the time.
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KenpoNoChikara
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- #26
There you go. If you are uncomfortable, discuss your feelings with your Grand Master openly and respectfully. I myself have very different views on religion, etc, then my instructors. However that is something that stays out of discussion when any classes are going on, that's really the best way to do it.GAB said:
Unless it is very much going on during class time, I woulden't let it bother me, you're there to train.
Respectfully, KNC
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
It is necessary to separate the traditional elements of martial arts from self imposed elements.
Andrew,
it is part of traditional martial arts to listen to your instructor. That does not mean we obey our Instructor like robots, for we are not robots and America is a different culture. However, there is a trust that must be in place before true training can take place. Oriental tradition is the Instructor in charge and runs the class, like the father runs his family (with the mother of course). If students questioned him at every turn, aside from being disrepectful it creates chaos. Nothing would get done. One of the reasons the Confederacy collapsed was that there was no central authority.
But getting back to the problem. Martial arts are not religion. They are based on moral values shared by all religions, but they are not religious. Any Instructor who tries to disseminate his religious beliefs in class is way out of line and missing the point. I don't want to hear how great God or Jesus are any more than I want to hear about the blessings of Allah or Buddha. If I want that, I know where the local church or temple is.
If you feel uncomfortable with the way your Instructor is introducing religion or making it part of the class, get out. It will only get worse. Aside from the fact you will never be able to reason with him. He will teach the way he wants to. And if you bring up your feelings, he will most definitely be suspicious of you since you are not a true believer allied with him.
Andrew,
it is part of traditional martial arts to listen to your instructor. That does not mean we obey our Instructor like robots, for we are not robots and America is a different culture. However, there is a trust that must be in place before true training can take place. Oriental tradition is the Instructor in charge and runs the class, like the father runs his family (with the mother of course). If students questioned him at every turn, aside from being disrepectful it creates chaos. Nothing would get done. One of the reasons the Confederacy collapsed was that there was no central authority.
But getting back to the problem. Martial arts are not religion. They are based on moral values shared by all religions, but they are not religious. Any Instructor who tries to disseminate his religious beliefs in class is way out of line and missing the point. I don't want to hear how great God or Jesus are any more than I want to hear about the blessings of Allah or Buddha. If I want that, I know where the local church or temple is.
If you feel uncomfortable with the way your Instructor is introducing religion or making it part of the class, get out. It will only get worse. Aside from the fact you will never be able to reason with him. He will teach the way he wants to. And if you bring up your feelings, he will most definitely be suspicious of you since you are not a true believer allied with him.
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MichTKd, just wanted you to note, its not Andrew with the problem but Cydone who created the thread... TW
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Point taken. I couldn't remember how to spell Cydone's name, so I didn't use it
. I can see how that would create some confusion, since Andrew Green's name was the last person I made reference to.
. I can see how that would create some confusion, since Andrew Green's name was the last person I made reference to.
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Patrick Skerry
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The philosophical explanations for the Eastern martial arts I think are necessary to explain to the Westerner why you can walk away from a bully or punk, even though you are fully trained enough to decimate him, and still retain your self-esteem.
My initial exposure to the philosophy of Taoism, Buddhism, Shinto, Zen, and Confucianism came from my martial arts training, which led me to research more and more of Eastern philosophy.
YET I draw the line at either Religious training or indoctrination within a martial arts class. I do not want to become a Taoist, Buddhist, or Confuciast, and would seriously resent any subliminal attempt at Religious conversion while paying for karate lessons.
My initial exposure to the philosophy of Taoism, Buddhism, Shinto, Zen, and Confucianism came from my martial arts training, which led me to research more and more of Eastern philosophy.
YET I draw the line at either Religious training or indoctrination within a martial arts class. I do not want to become a Taoist, Buddhist, or Confuciast, and would seriously resent any subliminal attempt at Religious conversion while paying for karate lessons.
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Cydone
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- #31
I havent met an instructor that was religious, or did in fact impose it on his students. Our Grandmaster, which we see on very special and rare occasions, do however seem to talk alittle too much (for my taste) about god.
I realized after making this thread, that I had two concerns. One was, my Grand Master, who I almost never see, (twice in 10 years) has become alittle too religious. My worry was that being the GM of the branch of Hapkido I practice, would somehow destroy what it is today, or damage it in some way.
The other, which I didnt state, was that I couldnt train more than 2 times a week. So these 2 seemingly bad things, should have me conclude that I should go find another system.
I just started practising Wing Tsun (Wing Chun) and its great, its at the Scandinavian HQ so I can train even 2 times aday if I wish, and this is indeed perfect for me.
I will miss Hapkido, and I might decide to continue, just for those 2 times a week, regardless of the religious beliefs of the GM.
I realized, you can train a system for 20 years, and then suddently found out that your GM is a murderer and a conjurer. Does that change you? Does that change what you have learned? It does ofcause pose a serious ethical issue. However it does not change the time you have put into the training, and your own personal development, nothing will ever change that.
Its all about picking and choosing the bits and pieces of life that makes sense to you, that gives you value, and can help you become what you want to become.
Hope this didnt sound too complicated, cos it realy is not. lol.
I realized after making this thread, that I had two concerns. One was, my Grand Master, who I almost never see, (twice in 10 years) has become alittle too religious. My worry was that being the GM of the branch of Hapkido I practice, would somehow destroy what it is today, or damage it in some way.
The other, which I didnt state, was that I couldnt train more than 2 times a week. So these 2 seemingly bad things, should have me conclude that I should go find another system.
I just started practising Wing Tsun (Wing Chun) and its great, its at the Scandinavian HQ so I can train even 2 times aday if I wish, and this is indeed perfect for me.
I will miss Hapkido, and I might decide to continue, just for those 2 times a week, regardless of the religious beliefs of the GM.
I realized, you can train a system for 20 years, and then suddently found out that your GM is a murderer and a conjurer. Does that change you? Does that change what you have learned? It does ofcause pose a serious ethical issue. However it does not change the time you have put into the training, and your own personal development, nothing will ever change that.
Its all about picking and choosing the bits and pieces of life that makes sense to you, that gives you value, and can help you become what you want to become.
Hope this didnt sound too complicated, cos it realy is not. lol.
OP
Mark70Z
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- Thread Starter
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I'm sure as you get older you will understand a lot more of what you had been taught when you were younger. Your right though, no one can take your past training, and experience away from you.
To me the problem is how do you separate a person from what he believes? They are one in the same. His/her views/philosophys will all derive from a belief system, whether it be Eastern Religions or Christianity, etc. Also, there will be no place you will go where you will agree with "every" philosophy that is taught. I think you just accept it, you don't have to believe it (or talk to the GM about it) or leave. There's your choice. I guess you chose to leave, but I'm sure you will not agree with "everything" that is taught, or the procedures, or philosophy where you are currently. You accept the good with the bad and if the bad starts to outweigh the good, then direct your path elsewhere.
To me the problem is how do you separate a person from what he believes? They are one in the same. His/her views/philosophys will all derive from a belief system, whether it be Eastern Religions or Christianity, etc. Also, there will be no place you will go where you will agree with "every" philosophy that is taught. I think you just accept it, you don't have to believe it (or talk to the GM about it) or leave. There's your choice. I guess you chose to leave, but I'm sure you will not agree with "everything" that is taught, or the procedures, or philosophy where you are currently. You accept the good with the bad and if the bad starts to outweigh the good, then direct your path elsewhere.
