Stop trying to pull the wool over my eyes

[MA-Caver]

These are a couple of my favorite Ninja pics... :uhyeah:

 

[Mimir]

If you haven't noticed from my avatar, I am one of Kwanjang's students. I was there when this guy came into the school and the way he describes the parts that I saw (I wasn't there for the dislocating of his mother's shoulder) did indeed happen. :xtrmshock Not sure what made the guy think that he would have been able to BS his way into the school

 

[MA-Caver]

If you haven't noticed from my avatar, I am one of Kwanjang's students. I was there when this guy came into the school and the way he describes the parts that I saw (I wasn't there for the dislocating of his mother's shoulder) did indeed happen. :xtrmshock Not sure what made the guy think that he would have been able to BS his way into the school

In a word....



.... ego

 

[Mimir]

Had to have been one MASSIVE ego. :erg:
:eye-popping:

 

[IcemanSK]

ego or perhaps mental illness (delusions). But that wouldn't explain the mother.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have never had anyone wanting to teach but I have had the occasional black belt that thinks that his rank should be transferable. I don't know why a student no matter what belt he is, would think that he should start a different art as the same belt before the instructor gets the chance to see what he can do. I don't think anyone no matter what rank they are in another art should be given anything except white to start. You are new to that art! And as such are a beginner.
What is so bad about being a white belt. Is it embarrassing? If so where did we get so many black belts and instructors? Did they start that way.
Being a white belt should be a good thing. It is the starting point of your journey. You can't get somewhere unless you start somewhere.
Sorry for all the philosophy. Kind of got started and couldn't stop.

I have had a couple of incidents when I was coming up through the ranks and also as a black belt in my art. I only had to ranks in my first system and a friend was going to an "open" TKD class to finish is Black Belt training as he stopped and was returning. I did not train in TKD. The senior Master there told me to wear my colored rank. I wanted to wear my white belt as I was a total newbie in TKD. He just smiled and asked me too. So out of respect I did. Well his instructors/Masters under him saw where I lined up for my color on my belt. It did not match the where the color I was wearing was lined up for their art. So, I got Scolded and I adjusted. Then, the students were upset that I did not know what they knew. But, I knew things they did not, as it became apparent when we were allowed to spare. In the end, after putting a few people on the gym floor with throws and locks in one and three steps they moved me up in ranks to free spar with the red belts and red belts black stripes. Now, I could not kick like these guys. I could cut 45 degrees and work the circle and use the techniques I had to the best of my ability. The issue was I tried nothing fancy and I was able to get it to work. This lead to many being upset for a "lessor" ranked person being able to score on them. No matter how I tried to explain to them about the different arts, they just kept coming and coming harder. So then I was sparring the Black Belts. The first degrees were not going to be shown up by a colored belt, so it turned into a pretty high contact. After being broke up a few times by the 4th degree, I was moved up to the 2nd degrees. Here is where I met an older person. ( was 21 ish and he was 40-50ish. So he was older than me, and not in his twenties. He looked me in the eye, and stated, "I cannot get hit that hard." I told him that would not be a problem. He asked if we could make no head shots and only body shots. I told him I would. We had lots of fun, and I actually was able to not just defend and counter attack I was able to learn. Then the 4th degree moved me up to him and the 3rd degrees. The 3rd degrees took there time working with me and only one tried to go back to being heavy contact, which ended up with me closing and throwing him. This caused me to just spar the 4th. Here, is where I got a real lesson. I saw him slow his timing down to my level. He kept the contact to my contact level. He could place his block or drop it and let me score as he decided. I really learned in this encounter.

My point is that even though I wanted to wear a white belt and ended up wearing my rank, it did not work out as everyone assumed I knew everything they did in the same fashion they did it.


In another case, I had my black belt and some rank as well. I was invited to a Judo/Jujitsu class. They were just getting into BJJ. This was '94-'95 time frame. The person who invited me did not show up. So, I did not change into my uniform and was getting ready to leave when the instructor asked me to get changed and come on out. I tried to explain that I had rank but was wearing a white belt as I was there to see what they had with an open mind. He would not listen and just put me with a black belt to be able to learn more from him. And most likely not hurt anyone while learning. I did not have a problem with this. The problem arose when the Black Belt decided to not work on what the senior was teaching and to just work on what he called chokes so I would have to tap out. Now, I have no problem tapping out. It is a safety that is used to avoid injury and I support it. His technique he wanted was not an actual choke but was a neck compression/ spine separation and I tapped as I did not want a permanent neck injury. He laughed and told me that I would pass out because that is what he liked to see. I replied he would break my neck before I passed out. He just kept it up and applied more force. As his technique had been entered with me giving it to him my hands were free. I poked him in the throat he stiff armed up off me. I grabbed his wrist and with his stiff arm I was able to do a wrist lock and throw / reverse him to the ground./ He was in a mount on me. I ended up in his guard. I then explained what he was trying to me and then showed him the choke he meant to do instead of the break. He was tapping the whole time and screaming totally scarred that he was going to get hurt. I then released him before damage and passing out. the whole class was watching me as I stood up. I guess they heard me telling him all about the difference of the break versus the choke form his guard while he was tapping and trying to yell. The senior instructor just looked at me. I bowed and asked to be dismissed. He walked over to me and asked what the heck happened. I explained it to him. He was upset, and apologized, and said he would talk to the guy as he had been told not to do that in the past. The senior asked me to stay so I would not walk out and have him loose respect from other prospective / new students. As he apologized I said ok. So he put me with this guy that made me look and feel small. It was hard to get into good positions on him, but we both tried to make it all work. Afterwards I just left and never went back.

So, while I was wearing a white belt, I could be accused of pulling the wool over their eyes because of my actual training. So which is worse, having no training and claiming it or having some and denying it. Now, I did not deny it nor was it my intent, but that is how it fell into place.

 

[Steve]

I have had a couple of incidents when I was coming up through the ranks and also as a black belt in my art. I only had to ranks in my first system and a friend was going to an "open" TKD class to finish is Black Belt training as he stopped and was returning. I did not train in TKD. The senior Master there told me to wear my colored rank. I wanted to wear my white belt as I was a total newbie in TKD. He just smiled and asked me too. So out of respect I did. Well his instructors/Masters under him saw where I lined up for my color on my belt. It did not match the where the color I was wearing was lined up for their art. So, I got Scolded and I adjusted. Then, the students were upset that I did not know what they knew. But, I knew things they did not, as it became apparent when we were allowed to spare. In the end, after putting a few people on the gym floor with throws and locks in one and three steps they moved me up in ranks to free spar with the red belts and red belts black stripes. Now, I could not kick like these guys. I could cut 45 degrees and work the circle and use the techniques I had to the best of my ability. The issue was I tried nothing fancy and I was able to get it to work. This lead to many being upset for a "lessor" ranked person being able to score on them. No matter how I tried to explain to them about the different arts, they just kept coming and coming harder. So then I was sparring the Black Belts. The first degrees were not going to be shown up by a colored belt, so it turned into a pretty high contact. After being broke up a few times by the 4th degree, I was moved up to the 2nd degrees. Here is where I met an older person. ( was 21 ish and he was 40-50ish. So he was older than me, and not in his twenties. He looked me in the eye, and stated, "I cannot get hit that hard." I told him that would not be a problem. He asked if we could make no head shots and only body shots. I told him I would. We had lots of fun, and I actually was able to not just defend and counter attack I was able to learn. Then the 4th degree moved me up to him and the 3rd degrees. The 3rd degrees took there time working with me and only one tried to go back to being heavy contact, which ended up with me closing and throwing him. This caused me to just spar the 4th. Here, is where I got a real lesson. I saw him slow his timing down to my level. He kept the contact to my contact level. He could place his block or drop it and let me score as he decided. I really learned in this encounter.

My point is that even though I wanted to wear a white belt and ended up wearing my rank, it did not work out as everyone assumed I knew everything they did in the same fashion they did it.


In another case, I had my black belt and some rank as well. I was invited to a Judo/Jujitsu class. They were just getting into BJJ. This was '94-'95 time frame. The person who invited me did not show up. So, I did not change into my uniform and was getting ready to leave when the instructor asked me to get changed and come on out. I tried to explain that I had rank but was wearing a white belt as I was there to see what they had with an open mind. He would not listen and just put me with a black belt to be able to learn more from him. And most likely not hurt anyone while learning. I did not have a problem with this. The problem arose when the Black Belt decided to not work on what the senior was teaching and to just work on what he called chokes so I would have to tap out. Now, I have no problem tapping out. It is a safety that is used to avoid injury and I support it. His technique he wanted was not an actual choke but was a neck compression/ spine separation and I tapped as I did not want a permanent neck injury. He laughed and told me that I would pass out because that is what he liked to see. I replied he would break my neck before I passed out. He just kept it up and applied more force. As his technique had been entered with me giving it to him my hands were free. I poked him in the throat he stiff armed up off me. I grabbed his wrist and with his stiff arm I was able to do a wrist lock and throw / reverse him to the ground./ He was in a mount on me. I ended up in his guard. I then explained what he was trying to me and then showed him the choke he meant to do instead of the break. He was tapping the whole time and screaming totally scarred that he was going to get hurt. I then released him before damage and passing out. the whole class was watching me as I stood up. I guess they heard me telling him all about the difference of the break versus the choke form his guard while he was tapping and trying to yell. The senior instructor just looked at me. I bowed and asked to be dismissed. He walked over to me and asked what the heck happened. I explained it to him. He was upset, and apologized, and said he would talk to the guy as he had been told not to do that in the past. The senior asked me to stay so I would not walk out and have him loose respect from other prospective / new students. As he apologized I said ok. So he put me with this guy that made me look and feel small. It was hard to get into good positions on him, but we both tried to make it all work. Afterwards I just left and never went back.

So, while I was wearing a white belt, I could be accused of pulling the wool over their eyes because of my actual training. So which is worse, having no training and claiming it or having some and denying it. Now, I did not deny it nor was it my intent, but that is how it fell into place.

I think the lesson to be learned here has less to do with belts and more to do with training with... we'll call them jerks to be polite. Doesn't matter what belt you wear. If you're paired up with a jerk, it will always go poorly.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think the lesson to be learned here has less to do with belts and more to do with training with... we'll call them jerks to be polite. Doesn't matter what belt you wear. If you're paired up with a jerk, it will always go poorly.

I agree the person you work with makes a big difference on how one perceives the art and the fun level of the training.

 

[hogstooth]

I had a guy tell me that his friend did the death touch on him. I suggested that perhaps his friend is not very good at it...

You've got a great sense of humor. Funny stuff.

 

[CoryKS]

I never knew what the heck a Korean Rock Marine was, and I still don't know if it's anything that's real. After posting this, just for curiosity's sake I'll do a google search. But anyway this guy used to always want me to show him techniques, but he'd never cooperate and always end up jabbing me in the throat or something before I could finish showing him.

ROK Marines are real, and they are BAMFs.

 

[hogstooth]

So, while I was wearing a white belt, I could be accused of pulling the wool over their eyes because of my actual training. So which is worse, having no training and claiming it or having some and denying it. Now, I did not deny it nor was it my intent, but that is how it fell into place.

Thats fine but I think you missed the point. It's great that you can spar your way up to 3rd Dan but you would still be wearing a white belt in my class. Just because you know how to fight doesn't mean you know the art.
If this is the basis of your logic then as a student of Kenjutsu I should be able to walk in to a Chinese school and be ranked the same using the Dao (sorry if the spelling is not right). This just doesn't compute. The whole reason to take a new art is to learn something new.
If you start with the preconceived notion that you should be ranked as whatever rank then why start the class in the first place. If you can't empty your cup and loose the ego then it is pretty much pointless. This was my point.

 

[MA-Caver]

More Ninja silliness...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thats fine but I think you missed the point. It's great that you can spar your way up to 3rd Dan but you would still be wearing a white belt in my class. Just because you know how to fight doesn't mean you know the art.
If this is the basis of your logic then as a student of Kenjutsu I should be able to walk in to a Chinese school and be ranked the same using the Dao (sorry if the spelling is not right). This just doesn't compute. The whole reason to take a new art is to learn something new.
If you start with the preconceived notion that you should be ranked as whatever rank then why start the class in the first place. If you can't empty your cup and loose the ego then it is pretty much pointless. This was my point.

I was trying to make a point that I think you missed.

My point was not how good of a fighter I was. And no where in there did I every say or imply that I knew TKD. Did I make a judgment of the art of TKD. I made comments about people assuming My Blue belt was the same as there blue belt. When I wore the White Belt I was at a Jujitsu club. So, you cannot even challenge me with the right data form my post. So I think you missed the point and went straight after I know nothing of the ART which I admitted but now it is you saying it so you are right, and I am wrong. Then you try to pull out the empty the EGO and learn. Which was my point of putting on the white belt in the first place at the JJ class.

Would you like to try to go back and quote the correct parts of my post in the correct context to show me where I missed your point?

 

[Mike Hamer]

Hahahahaha, great stories guys, I got a laugh out of them!iratewhe

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hahahahaha, great stories guys, I got a laugh out of them!iratewhe

Mike,

I am glad you got a laugh. My point was to say that even though I wanted to wear a white and wore a blue belt I still got in trouble by other people assuming. And then in the other case when I wore a white belt and the guy assumed he could just dominate me and possible injure me.

The issue is that even if you put the white belt on and place your ego aside and do not constantly warn other of your training then there will be an issue when you naturally counter something of do something instinctively. I prefer to wear no belt. I think wearing the white when learning a new art is a good thing. I was just trying to make the point that even for those who place their ego aside issues can arise. I do not support the transferring of rank from one system to another. I know that your skill will make it easier to learn in others though.

Thanks

 

[Brian S]

Hahahahaha, great stories guys, I got a laugh out of them!iratewhe

Me too! Loved the pics MA Caver!

 

[The Anarchist]

I can destroy people just by giving them a mean look.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have had similar stories of that of the OP in thread but I also have a few that are on the opposite side of the coin.
I have had people enter my training place and sit silently watching class. They usually will just give a first name when I go over and say they saw the place and thought they would stop by to see what we did or that they had heard we taught “such and such’ and wanted to watch a class.
There is something about they way they moved or maybe the fact that they can not stop at a door with out bowing or almost doing so that give them away. Some of their hands showed what they did and their eyes have that look that says I see all and know what you are doing.
These quests have always been most respectful and courteous and ask intelligent questions and NEVER ask to step on the floor.
I have asked a few to return and found out who they where after a while, for the most part. Some I have asked to give demonstrations of their forms or to explain about their art to my students. Some have become friends. Some I never did find out who they where and wonder about them from time to time.

 

[Laurentkd]

Mike,

I am glad you got a laugh. My point was to say that even though I wanted to wear a white and wore a blue belt I still got in trouble by other people assuming. And then in the other case when I wore a white belt and the guy assumed he could just dominate me and possible injure me.

The issue is that even if you put the white belt on and place your ego aside and do not constantly warn other of your training then there will be an issue when you naturally counter something of do something instinctively. I prefer to wear no belt. I think wearing the white when learning a new art is a good thing. I was just trying to make the point that even for those who place their ego aside issues can arise. I do not support the transferring of rank from one system to another. I know that your skill will make it easier to learn in others though.

Thanks

I think you are right on that a white belt can be deceptive, and at the same time wearing your own different rank can be just as confusing. We had a student come in to our Korean arts school that was a black belt in another style (I don't even remember what it was now... a Japanese style). My instructor gave him a white belt with a black stripe in the middle. The idea was that he was a white belt in our system, but this way other students and instructors could easily tell that he had earned a black belt in another style. The student didn't stick around for more than 3 or 4 months, but I thought it was a good way to solve the problem.... I would have liked to see how it worked out over time.

 

[ProTaekwondo]

I think you are right on that a white belt can be deceptive, and at the same time wearing your own different rank can be just as confusing. We had a student come in to our Korean arts school that was a black belt in another style (I don't even remember what it was now... a Japanese style). My instructor gave him a white belt with a black stripe in the middle. The idea was that he was a white belt in our system, but this way other students and instructors could easily tell that he had earned a black belt in another style. The student didn't stick around for more than 3 or 4 months, but I thought it was a good way to solve the problem.... I would have liked to see how it worked out over time.

Wow a white belt with a black stripe, that is a really neat idea!