Flatlander
Grandmaster
No probs, Feisty! Sometimes things need to be repeated again more than once.
Dojo / Dojang and religious symbols
- Thread starter white belt
- Start date
white belt
Brown Belt
Don't take this the wrong way but, the latest posts give examples of how I could go from wearing my Instructor's hat, to a Referees hat, to the title of the "Accused" hat, in a civil court of law, with one quick wrong turn. You are all making good and valid points but, I just want to teach a little "chop chop" and not give away my integrity or future paychecks. Please don't post anything to cause the mods to shut this topic down. Even though I have my convictions, I possibly have much to learn yet on the topic.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Zepp
Master of Arts
Patrick Skerry is right about the strong similarities between semetic religions and cultures. If someone started a thread on the similarities between Judiasm and Islam in the Study, we could probably keep it going for months. But Flatlander is even more right- that really has nothing to do with this particular topic.
From the details white belt has given us, we can see the real issue at hand here isn't so much religious symbolism or apparel, but some people's perception of fairness. Some individuals are so concerned with what is "fair" to them, that they lose sight of what is fair to others.
The dress code in white belt's dojang discriminates against certain people who are religious, but the only practical solution to this would be for him to give himself the power to make arbitrary exceptions. For some instructors in some schools, in other places, that's not a problem. But apparently a potential problem exists at this school because some (most?) of the customers are more worried about what is (supposedly) fair to them, and wouldn't be willing to accept their instructor making an exception to a rule that doesn't include them. Does that about sum it up?
White belt, I don't think your integrity is an issue here. You've got a business to run (on which I assume your livlehood depends), and even though it's a shame to lose those two boys over this, I don't think you should be blamed for trying to protect yourself.
If you do want to make the attempt to explain yourself to the family, and offer a chance to compromise, I don't think you should hesitate to contact the father ASAP.
Good luck with everything.
From the details white belt has given us, we can see the real issue at hand here isn't so much religious symbolism or apparel, but some people's perception of fairness. Some individuals are so concerned with what is "fair" to them, that they lose sight of what is fair to others.
The dress code in white belt's dojang discriminates against certain people who are religious, but the only practical solution to this would be for him to give himself the power to make arbitrary exceptions. For some instructors in some schools, in other places, that's not a problem. But apparently a potential problem exists at this school because some (most?) of the customers are more worried about what is (supposedly) fair to them, and wouldn't be willing to accept their instructor making an exception to a rule that doesn't include them. Does that about sum it up?
White belt, I don't think your integrity is an issue here. You've got a business to run (on which I assume your livlehood depends), and even though it's a shame to lose those two boys over this, I don't think you should be blamed for trying to protect yourself.
If you do want to make the attempt to explain yourself to the family, and offer a chance to compromise, I don't think you should hesitate to contact the father ASAP.
Good luck with everything.
kenpo tiger
Senior Master
Never said that - read my post again.CanuckMA said:
I don't feel that White Belt's school policy is discriminatory. As was said elsewhere on this thread, as a private institution, White Belt may set policies peculiar to that institution. It's the consumer's choice as to where he or she wants to train.
And I stand by my statement that White Belt should stand by his principles. That is, in my opinion, most important.
Oh yes. My instructor is Roman Catholic. Then again, I'm a secular practitioner of my religion. If I wanted a Jewish instructor, I'd be training in Krav Maga, not American Kenpo.
My instructor had two Iranian/Muslim students who had dual citizenship. These boys/teens would be here nine months out of the year and in Iran the rest. When they originally joined they had a problem bowing to the US Flag. Our instructor had to insist that if they didn't bow then there would be no class. So even though they felt strongly about not bowing, they eventually wanted class more and complied. My instructor is also a converted Christian extremist. he was once a Muslim so it makes it interesting. He doesn't allow Christian religious symbols or Muslim headscarves in the school. But he does allow smaller bandanna types but not if it could be a gang indication.
I would agree that you have to draw the line and not allow any religious symbols. The white uniform is for a reason, to make us all the same and to enable us to train focused and comfortably. I could see that it could open Pandora's box and allow Christian fundamentalists to start sporting patches and proseletizing. TW
I would agree that you have to draw the line and not allow any religious symbols. The white uniform is for a reason, to make us all the same and to enable us to train focused and comfortably. I could see that it could open Pandora's box and allow Christian fundamentalists to start sporting patches and proseletizing. TW
white belt
Brown Belt
Good questions. Study up on Egyptian business law and their allowance of non- Muslim religious customs. The answers would be interesting to say the least. It's not one world. I would wager, from my limited studies of said topic, that the scarves, etc. are allowed but, other non-Muslim religious symbolism is at the very least frowned upon. Put "Muslim conversion to Christianity Egypt" in your search engine and see what comes up. This should give a rough idea. Any Egyptian martial artists please jump in.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Rob Broad said:
Well, would a Christian be allowed not to wear a headdress say, in Egypt? TW
white belt
Brown Belt
Wig? I don't know. The purpose of covering the hair is to prevent man from having lurid thoughts. Would a wig not be more than say....fake breasts?
Muslim law dictates, in large part, the day to day activities in predominately Muslim countries. I know that our female military, when in Suadi Arabia, are prohibited from going into populated areas without covering up to a certain degree. This is due to their (Saudis) regulation of (SPELLING?) Shiria or Muslim law. Egypt? Dojangs? Don't know.
I will approach the dad again when the opportunity is right. Should be next Tuesday if they haven't quit. I have to make sure he doesn't see this as my trying to "convert" him or something.
Thanks.
Muslim law dictates, in large part, the day to day activities in predominately Muslim countries. I know that our female military, when in Suadi Arabia, are prohibited from going into populated areas without covering up to a certain degree. This is due to their (Saudis) regulation of (SPELLING?) Shiria or Muslim law. Egypt? Dojangs? Don't know.
I will approach the dad again when the opportunity is right. Should be next Tuesday if they haven't quit. I have to make sure he doesn't see this as my trying to "convert" him or something.
Thanks.
As far as I understand it, wearing wigs is acceptible for Orthodox Jewish women who wish to cover their hair - as long as their own hair is only revealed to their husbands.
I think, however, that one of the Muslim reasons for women to cover their hair (and bodies) is to not be a temptation to men and incite them to lust. Perhaps then a wig would not be as useful.
white belt
Brown Belt
Appreciate the thoughts but, business law in the U.S. is my concern. My Association guidelines may be in agreement or not. That will not stop me from protecting against liability. The prior points in question were made largely to illustrate the lack of tolerance structured between different cultures. For the most part I understand there is little to no seperation of church and state in Egypt. Hence my Muslim friends difficulty in comprehending my position other than something of sacriledge rather than a practical business move from a Western legal standpoint. If he allows his kids to still train with me and not imagine I have horns and a tail, that's good enough for me. If he bolts, well, I will wish them well and get on with teaching. If he thinks he has a discrimination case, well, I have set no precedent to support his claims. No special allowances for Christians, Aetheists, etc. No case. Can I be taken to court anyway? Yes. Will I be found guilty? Unless I get Judge Wackjob, no. Even if Wackjob presides, I can appeal. I wont allow some foreign or national governing body to endanger an investment such as my school. Their input is moot to me. They won't replace my business, home, retirement, college for my son, etc. That I can be sure of.
To get back to the point in starting this thread. I will give all students equal, not special treatment. Is there a compromise that makes Muslim dad happy without my settin a precedent?
Thanks.
To get back to the point in starting this thread. I will give all students equal, not special treatment. Is there a compromise that makes Muslim dad happy without my settin a precedent?
Thanks.
Sure, have a month of straight sparring or sparring combination practice. She has to wear headgear for safety reason, no exception, with a cage in front all the time. Its so hot though I doubt she will stay in class long... Best of luck on your decision but I think you are making the correct one for my 2c TW
M
Mark Weiser
Guest
Just FYI this is a public forum therefore you can use this as evidence in your defense if needed so copy and paste to a cd to give to your attorney. GOOD LUCK!!
Every time you change the way you do things to accommodate someone you are setting a precidence and there will always be someone who will use it to their advantage. You will start hearing "Yeah but you let so and so do this, and mine is no different". You would be opening up a whole can of worms.white belt said:
My question is, has the husband seen an adult class? Does he know how intense these classes can be and how much contact his wife would have with other classmates and men in the school. Is he comfortable putting her at risk to passing out from being over heated? Our head is where a good percentage of our body heat escapes from. Maybe invite him into an adult class to watch, then talk with him afterwards. Ask him if he is going to allow his wife to fully participate in every aspect of your class. If nothing else, you both will know where the other stands.
K
KenpoNoChikara
Guest
I think you handled the situation well. bignick's idea for an all-womans class was good too.
White Belt
From the sounds of how you describe your classes I wouldn't allow the head covering. Personally I think you should be protected against a lawsuit since you have set policies and procedures that outline what is allowed and isn't llowed in class. Actually this has been a good topic because this time it's a head covering, however as other people have brought up next time it could be patches, tattoes ect. ect. But from the sounds of it you have set policies that were in place before this came about.
The white uniform places everyone at the same level (not rank wise), with everyone wearing a similar type garment so no one stands out. This would be in contrast to schools that allow you to wear multicolored uniforms (flashy silk, or all colors of the rainbow, camo, ect. ect.).
The gi is a cultureal garment as well, we don't wear them here as normal dress, but we use them for training for this very reason that it makes everyone part of something larger than ourselves (our system). we de-emphasize the individual in our training/class and are part of a group. We learn how to do things one way (the styles way). So I wouldn't be against not allowing the head covering in the class if this is how you conduct your school.
However if your school is one that allows the colored uniforms (I'm not talkiing about Team uniforms/BB clubs per say, rather red bottoms/blue tops mix you know) or patches from who knows where with different weapons ect. ect. than I would allow it.
In my instructors classes at the health center he now teaches at, everyone wears white uniforms (even instructors) no one wears multicolored unifroms or you don't train in his class.
I've got to head to evening church but a final thought. Have you asked the father if his wife might be able to have private lessons with the kids, then I would allow her to wear what is permissible for her (the head covering). Also I wouldn't charge the normal fee for a private/semi private lesson rather factor in what your standard rate for the family would be. You might even get the father to join in along with the kids.
Maybe the father is worried about self defense training for his wife and that is why he asks about classes for her. This could be covered during this time. Maybe in the future if they saw you were trying to work with them something might work out. In time she could work in to sparring class with the other students where she could wear the head gear. One other thing give her the option of wearing the (sparring) head gear, even though we might think it would be to hot, it might be worth it for her to wear it. If this is the case then let her and don't worry about anyone else since it is an item that can be worn in your school.
With respect (sorry for any misspellings)
mark
From the sounds of how you describe your classes I wouldn't allow the head covering. Personally I think you should be protected against a lawsuit since you have set policies and procedures that outline what is allowed and isn't llowed in class. Actually this has been a good topic because this time it's a head covering, however as other people have brought up next time it could be patches, tattoes ect. ect. But from the sounds of it you have set policies that were in place before this came about.
The white uniform places everyone at the same level (not rank wise), with everyone wearing a similar type garment so no one stands out. This would be in contrast to schools that allow you to wear multicolored uniforms (flashy silk, or all colors of the rainbow, camo, ect. ect.).
The gi is a cultureal garment as well, we don't wear them here as normal dress, but we use them for training for this very reason that it makes everyone part of something larger than ourselves (our system). we de-emphasize the individual in our training/class and are part of a group. We learn how to do things one way (the styles way). So I wouldn't be against not allowing the head covering in the class if this is how you conduct your school.
However if your school is one that allows the colored uniforms (I'm not talkiing about Team uniforms/BB clubs per say, rather red bottoms/blue tops mix you know) or patches from who knows where with different weapons ect. ect. than I would allow it.
In my instructors classes at the health center he now teaches at, everyone wears white uniforms (even instructors) no one wears multicolored unifroms or you don't train in his class.
I've got to head to evening church but a final thought. Have you asked the father if his wife might be able to have private lessons with the kids, then I would allow her to wear what is permissible for her (the head covering). Also I wouldn't charge the normal fee for a private/semi private lesson rather factor in what your standard rate for the family would be. You might even get the father to join in along with the kids.
Maybe the father is worried about self defense training for his wife and that is why he asks about classes for her. This could be covered during this time. Maybe in the future if they saw you were trying to work with them something might work out. In time she could work in to sparring class with the other students where she could wear the head gear. One other thing give her the option of wearing the (sparring) head gear, even though we might think it would be to hot, it might be worth it for her to wear it. If this is the case then let her and don't worry about anyone else since it is an item that can be worn in your school.
With respect (sorry for any misspellings)
mark
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
I agree 100% with the white uniform analogy. We use them so that noone stands out-all are considered the same. I understand people and prospective students have certain religious and political beliefs. However, martial arts class is not the time or place to express those beliefs. If a female student normally wears the headscarf because Islam says she should, outside class I understand. I may not agree, but I understand. However, in class, if I let her wear a headscarf out of respect for her religion, who's to say a devout Christian student wouldn't want to wear a large crucifix necklace to promote their religion? Their reasoning: You let her wear a headscarf, why can't I wear a crucifix? or a student who wants to wear a political button on their uniform. Where do you draw the line? Before you know it, class policy is dictated by students rather than traditional etiquette or the Instructor's decisions.
white belt
Brown Belt
I apologize for not addressing the subject of private lessons sooner. With my circumstances it just is not feasable. I have had other opportunities to teach privately but, I just don't have the time to take from my personal life what with a day career and a family.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Thanks for the suggestions.
