"My kid needs discipline"

[Andrew Green]

I am not saying that the karate school should be the sole source of discipline (far from it)

Organized sports have been advertising based on "character building" for a long time, long before the martial arts industry picked up that line and ran with it. And sports do build some good traits, leadership, teamwork, fair play, perseverance, etc.

But they are side effects, not primary goals. Putting a child in a activity they don't want to do to teach them "discipline" is the kind of reasoning that probably led to having a undisciplined child in the first place.

For martial arts, or any activity, to have a positive effect on a person it has to be something they want to do.

As martial artists, and some of us instructors I think it is important to remember the side-effects of what we do, which include "character development" if done right. But it seems that there are a lot of schools that go on and on about discipline and character, yet have no idea where those things come from in relation to the martial arts. Instead they seem to think it's about sharp stances, bowing, screaming "yes sir" and winning trophies for looking like a little soldier on pajama parade.

It might feel like your teaching those things, but your not. It's load, in your face, and feels like its working, but it's more like going on a bacon and ice cream diet to get healthy. Even if you lose weight, your in worse condition then when you started.

 

[shesulsa]

Organized sports have been advertising based on "character building" for a long time, long before the martial arts industry picked up that line and ran with it. And sports do build some good traits, leadership, teamwork, fair play, perseverance, etc.

But they are side effects, not primary goals. Putting a child in a activity they don't want to do to teach them "discipline" is the kind of reasoning that probably led to having a undisciplined child in the first place.

Well, they can be side-effects but I think they're necessary elements of a good team player and one is either going to develop them or they're not. In team sports it's a lot easier with youth because if you don't use cooperative skills, don't listen, don't hustle, find a way to make yourself part of the whole, then it's likely you won't play much. I'd call that incentive to gain key requirements for your position and coaches can and *do* help with that - if they're good coaches.

The point of putting youngsters into team sports is not so they can have a crapload of trophies to decorate their bedrooms or bachelor pads with - it's to teach them the principles of teamwork, hard work, discipline, self-control along with the value of fitness.

For martial arts, or any activity, to have a positive effect on a person it has to be something they want to do.

I think that's true for the most part, though not necessarily always true.

As martial artists, and some of us instructors I think it is important to remember the side-effects of what we do, which include "character development" if done right. But it seems that there are a lot of schools that go on and on about discipline and character, yet have no idea where those things come from in relation to the martial arts. Instead they seem to think it's about sharp stances, bowing, screaming "yes sir" and winning trophies for looking like a little soldier on pajama parade.

Hm.

While the "YES SIR!" or "YES MA'AM!" is encouraged it's more about attitude and focus. If a kid is down or had a bad day or bored or distracted, making them yell these can help them focus - it's not the only way, but it's a traditional way that seems to have worked for ... ah ... ever. :uhyeah:

But the sharp stances, bowing and other things you mentioned: Well, I'm sorry Andrew but this is where I disagree with you. This is more about a striving for personal excellence and self improvement. I don't expect a 7-year-old to fully understand what those things mean ... but they can get that lesson and emulate it in other areas of living, working, learning. If the teacher's a good one who asks for parent and teacher reports on the child's development and character outside of school, the incentive to excel is created as is the lesson that a person is who they are, wherever they are. They are a good person at school, at home, in the dojang and on the playground. They are good people with good work ethics who set good examples on the field, on the mat or in the ring or at a party.

I do want to touch on the "soldier" comment - there is a middle ground between creating little soldiers and running a punching and kicking day-care. We try to balance that - make sure the kids have fun but know there are times for seriousness. This is also an important life lesson.

It might feel like your teaching those things, but your not. It's load, in your face, and feels like its working, but it's more like going on a bacon and ice cream diet to get healthy. Even if you lose weight, your in worse condition then when you started.

I think the first part of this is wrong and the second part ... uh ... well ... hm. I think you're saying if you think you're teaching kids how to be better people you're actually doing them more harm than good? And I really don't think that can be said generally without visiting every single kid's program in the world which you clearly can't do.

Cheers.

 

[MBuzzy]

Also, as a parent, I find that sometimes we are "too" close to our kids; some things we say are automatically discounted because it's mom or dad that's saying it. For some reason, some messages come across better when delivered by others, such as their karate instructor. For his part, he tends to have a message nearly every class... these messages build on each other and reinforce each other through repetition and through great examples he brings up which the kids can relate to through their training and through their experience at school, etc.

This is a very good point. It is much easier for us to instill discipline in a child. Because honestly, if I give a kid 50 push ups to do and correct him, I'm going to sleep just fine. A parent may feel some guilt about giving certain types of discipline and there are other types that they never will.

I learned in the military that if you constantly discipline someone, it eventually starts to have no effect, so it helps to have an outside party do it occassionally....or change your style.

 

[theletch1]

This is a very good point. It is much easier for us to instill discipline in a child. Because honestly, if I give a kid 50 push ups to do and correct him, I'm going to sleep just fine. A parent may feel some guilt about giving certain types of discipline and there are other types that they never will.

I learned in the military that if you constantly discipline someone, it eventually starts to have no effect, so it helps to have an outside party do it occassionally....or change your style.

True, but here again you're only reinforcing what they are getting at home. It's the parents that will not provide any discipline to their own children that are the problems to us. If a parent comes to me and says "I've explained self discipline to him a dozen times. I tried punishments a, b and c and it just isn't working." then I'll be more than happy to do what I can as an instructor to try to help that situation.

 

[Kacey]

I've had several parents ask me if I can get their children to behave at home the way they behave in class - but there a few differences:
- the kids who are in class voluntarily (which is nearly all of them) are motivated to improve
- the class meets 90 minutes/class, 2 times/week
- there are quite a few other people there who also want to learn, and who help redirect anyone, child or adult, who interferes with their ability to learn

That's not to say that the discipline learned in class can't be expanded by the parent to the home - but as has been said, I'm there to teach TKD, not raise other peoples' kids; I do that enough at my day job... but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Sukerkin]

Whilst I have little argument with much of what has been posted on this already, one aside that I would offer is that there is a great deal of criticism of parents 'these days' for failing to instill discipline in their children - the defence I would offer for them is in the form of a straight question:

Just how are they expected to achieve this goal when all the tools required to fulfil the task are denied to them? It's past time for the bleeding heart of the myth of the 'Innocent Child Brutalised' to be put back in the box and be replaced by the truer image that a young human is a morally directionless organism, designed to only serve its own needs initially, that has to be inculcated with the required values.

 

[shesulsa]

Whilst I have little argument with much of what has been posted on this already, one aside that I would offer is that there is a great deal of criticism of parents 'these days' for failing to instill discipline in their children - the defence I would offer for them is in the form of a straight question:

Just how are they expected to achieve this goal when all the tools required to fulfil the task are denied to them? It's past time for the bleeding heart of the myth of the 'Innocent Child Brutalised' to be put back in the box and be replaced by the truer image that a young human is a morally directionless organism, designed to only serve its own needs initially, that has to be inculcated with the required values.

This is a good question and quite possibly an argument for strictness in fun, no?

I think we need to be careful as parents to not think that fun is absent rules and character, as teachers to think we can do nothing to shape students, as family members to think we can't help shape the lives of other familial youth, as community members to not think kids will be kids and allow them to run amok.

"Fun" does not equal "no rules"
"Sports" does not equal "brawl"
"Tradition" does not equal "suffocation"
"Growth" does not equal "certain death"

We don't do kids any favors by defending them when they're wrong or indulging their entitlement complexes. I've never been afraid to make that point with parents in a gentle way. I've also never been afraid to tell them that I can understand more about that child than they can know by watching how that child behaves in class. The good ones stay, the ones with immature parents leave. :idunno:

It's been said here that it has to be a partnership and I really couldn't agree more. Most kids are left to essentially parent themselves ... not a good idea.

 

[Shotochem]

We don't do kids any favors by defending them when they're wrong or indulging their entitlement complexes. I've never been afraid to make that point with parents in a gentle way. I've also never been afraid to tell them that I can understand more about that child than they can know by watching how that child behaves in class. The good ones stay, the ones with immature parents leave. :idunno:

It's been said here that it has to be a partnership and I really couldn't agree more. Most kids are left to essentially parent themselves ... not a good idea.

I agree. Children have to be taught that they are reponsible for their actions and that in the real world there are consequences and accountibilities.

I am always telling my son that if he keeps up that prima-donna attitude and sense of entitlement, when he gets out there in the workforce he better get used to hearing the words......"You're Fired!"

-Marc-

 

[thardey]

I'm friends with one of these guys who, in his mid 30's, never learned discipline outside of Karate.

His Mom is one of these parents above . . . not able to discipline, only manipulate.

She got him into Karate just out of high school, I think she paid for it. Now he's a 5th degree Master. He has great respect for others, a strong sense of personal discipline, respect for authority, and a good work ethic -- in karate.

Unfortunately, the rest of his life is a mess. He can't hold a job (It's never his fault, though.) he won't discipline his own son, he fights with his mother constantly, and refuses to work with authority, unless he's legally threatened with losing something.

Karate taught him respect for Karate. No one taught him how to apply that to the rest of his life.

 

[Sukerkin]

A good 'real world' insight there, Thardey.

Also, discipline has to be 'learned' early, otherwise it can oftentimes be 'patchy' as to how it settles in to a persons nature. A companion to it also has to be a sense of personal integrity and honesty, otherwise a person can turn out to be very disciplined and focussed in finding ways of breaking the rules and generally 'getting away' with stuff.

I often wonder how I would've turned out if the child-centric, punishment-free, laissez-faire social environment had been in place when I was born.

I had serious 'issues' with willfullness, belligerence and resorting to physical retribution as a conflict-resolution strategy. It took my father years to knock that out of me but he managed in the end to make me an acceptable member of my society (however marginally ).

The route to that was strictly enforced rules of behaviour. Equally importantly, the punishments for breaking those rules were known quantities and were evenly imposed. By this I mean that I knew ahead of time that if I did X then Y was going to happen and altho', extenuating circumstances could be taken into account, it was seldom possible to 'plea bargain' your way out of consequences of some description {and it could actually make things worse if you sought to manipulate the 'judge' :lol:}.

These insanely topsy-turvey days my dad would be locked up for child abuse as not many days went by without my getting a good-hiding for something.

Which leads me back around to the point that parents have got to start fighting the system to win back their right to discipline their children as necessary or we're going to have chaos with all the selfish people, possessed of no sense of self-control, that will flood society ... oh, darn it, too late!

 

[Carol]

I can't recall when I've seen any kind of display advert at all that says "Salem Girls Soccer Teaches Discipline And Is Fun For Kids!" or "Salem Pop Warner Football Teaches Discipline And Is Fun For Kids!"

Yet, many martial arts schools advertise in that manner. Flipping through the phone book, the schools in my area that have kids programs tend to emphasize discipline even moreso than self-defense.

A potential parent/customer will likely approach a school with Martial Arts = Discipline engrained in their mind. Whether that message came from the school that was approached is irrelevant.

Misconception or not, this is the message that has stuck.

 

[morph4me]

Unfortunately discipline in one setting doesn't translate well to discipline in another. I have a nephew who is well behaved when he is with me and my wife but at home he plays his parents against each other and gets away with murder, since they won't recognize what he's doing they have a discipline problem.

My wife taught for years with her colleagues wondering why she never had issues with the " problem kids". Just because an instructor can maintain discipline in the dojo, doesn't mean the parents will be able to at home.

 

[Shotochem]

I can't recall when I've seen any kind of display advert at all that says "Salem Girls Soccer Teaches Discipline And Is Fun For Kids!" or "Salem Pop Warner Football Teaches Discipline And Is Fun For Kids!"

Yet, many martial arts schools advertise in that manner. Flipping through the phone book, the schools in my area that have kids programs tend to emphasize discipline even moreso than self-defense.

A potential parent/customer will likely approach a school with Martial Arts = Discipline engrained in their mind. Whether that message came from the school that was approached is irrelevant.

Misconception or not, this is the message that has stuck.

MA does teach discipline.....in MA.

Unfortunately as many have stated it really doesn't always translate to the real world.

I do believe however, that MA is a benefit to most kids as an excellent healthy way to burn off energy, stay fit, make friends and learn the comraderie of a disciplined group of people. Hopefully some will rub off on them. MA have also helped my son release alot of his teenage anger and agression in a positive way. When one learns to control their body, the mind will soon follow.

-Marc-

 

[tshadowchaser]

as has been said before discipline for an hour a day a couple times a week dose not mean much outside of that time frame in many instances.

It has also been talked about the results of other sports instilling discipline nut when you read the headlines in the papers or watch TV or go to these sporting events, how many times do you see where violence has erupted. Parents yelling obscenities at officials, other parents, the players on the field, or floor. How many parents, family members are arrested each year for violence at sporting events.

It is obvious that perhaps the parents need lessons in respect and discipline as well as the children.
If the parents are undisciplined and not respectful how can we instill these qualities
on the children

 

[Balrog]

While reading another thread I read a statement by an instructor here on the board that read (paraphrase) "If a parent expects me to be their child's disciplinarian they're in for a big surprise." I could not agree more with this statement. So many times I've seen folks come into the dojo and during the conversation they'll say something along the lines of "Well, he's uncontrollable at home and school so we thought putting him in a martial arts class would teach him some discipline."

I get those folks all the time.

I tell them, fine, I'll take you and your son as students. He needs to see you out there doing what he's doing and vice versa.

I do this because if the kid is a discipline problem, guess who he learned it from?

 

[theletch1]

I agree with you, Balrog, but not always because dad's an overbearing *** or mom's a loud mouthed wench. Too often the folks that I see with the children "needin' a little discipline" are those parents who feel that it's more important to be juniors best friend first and parent second. Your kid has friends at school or online or in the neighborhood. That's not your job. Your job is to know who those friends are and be a parent and that includes a little discipline once in a while...once in a while meaning constant vigilance.

 

[Balrog]

I agree with you, Balrog, but not always because dad's an overbearing *** or mom's a loud mouthed wench. Too often the folks that I see with the children "needin' a little discipline" are those parents who feel that it's more important to be juniors best friend first and parent second. Your kid has friends at school or online or in the neighborhood. That's not your job. Your job is to know who those friends are and be a parent and that includes a little discipline once in a while...once in a while meaning constant vigilance.

Exactly. The parents are the primary role models. They are either leading by example in teaching the kid to be a jerk because they are jerks, or they are leading by example in - as you said - not being a parent first.

Two of the best books I have ever read are _Parent in Control_ and _Back in Control_, by Gregory Bodenhamer. Both are available on Amazon. I have changed my teaching techniques to incorporate a lot of what he advocates. I personally think his books should be required reading before anyone is allowed to have a child.

The saddening thing, to me, is how many parents, over the years, I have had to counsel in basic parenting techniques. They haven't got a clue.

 

[Clapping_tiger]

I couldn't agree with you all more. We would have parents come in all the time wanting us to "fix things". I would tell them the truth. That despite what they may think about Martial Arts teaching the child discipline, they need to visualize the changes they want to make as a triangle. The parents and home structure as the base, then school and the Karate school as the support structure. Without the base the 2 support structures of the pyramid fall apart and are nothing. It all starts at home, and we can help reinforce and be a support structure, but teaching discipline and manners is the parents job. Some would get it and we would see some change. Others there would be no change because the lessons learned would not be supported or followed through at home.