Do We Make Too Much of Kata?

[isshinryuronin]

It's difficult to compare

- 20% form training and 80% combat training with 80% form training and 20% combat training.

Back in the day, regular class time was divided into all types of training:

15% physical conditioning
30% basic drills
20% two-man practice
20% kata
15% freestyle sparring

I still feel this was a great all-round workout and developed strong karate. There was Friday night sparring for those wanting more of that and we were free to drop in anytime to work out on the heavy bag, makiwara or do kata.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's difficult to compare

- 20% form training and 80% combat training with 80% form training and 20% combat training.

Yup, but that is much more representative of reality. It isn’t such a simple topic as people want to pretend.

 

[Flying Crane]

Where did I say that?

Form is used to "polish" MA skill. But one needs to develop combat skill first. Otherwise, there is nothing to be polished.

Ok fair enough. You do send a message somewhat derisive of forms, but maybe I am unfairly lumping you in with some others.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok fair enough. You do send a message somewhat derisive of forms, but maybe I am unfairly lumping you in with some others.

I have put up these 2 videos before. After one has developed a skill, solo form training can help him to "polish" that skill.

If you teach solo form first, I don't know if your students can understand what you are doing with your twisting leg.

 

[Old CJ]

As a beginner, I love Kata. Kata directs my energy while practicing solo. Kata gives me a sense of accomplishment when I eventually do it correctly. Kata challenges me. If I can do a Kata correctly I can move on to learn more Karate. Kata teaches me correct movement. Kata gauges my progress.

Obviously I am a proponent of Kata.

In my opinion Kata provides posterity for the style. GO SHOTOKAN!

Do Katas become more difficult in progression? I'm learning Heianan Sandan and so far it is by far the most difficult for me to learn. Ima get it before the next time I see My Sensei in a few days. I have 1/2 of it learned.

Should I be capitalizing the word 'Kata'? Should I be capitalizing 'Sensei'?

 

[isshinryuronin]

As a beginner, I love Kata. Kata directs my energy while practicing solo. Kata gives me a sense of accomplishment when I eventually do it correctly. Kata challenges me. If I can do a Kata correctly I can move on to learn more Karate. Kata teaches me correct movement. Kata gauges my progress.

Can't argue with this.

Do Katas become more difficult in progression? I'm learning Heianan Sandan and so far it is by far the most difficult for me to learn.

Generally speaking, yes, but it took me 50 years to "master" our first kata. Heian sandan is IMO the most interesting and potentially difficult of the five heians.

Should I be capitalizing the word 'Kata'? Should I be capitalizing 'Sensei'?

Pretty much just follow standard English grammar. Used as a proper noun, capitalize it: "I asked Sensei if he knows Sensei Bob." "I asked my sensei to teach me heian yondan." I don't capitalize names of kata or styles, unless it's named for a person: "I like isshinryu and Uechi ryu." The use of a space or hyphen before "ryu" is variable, but there seems to be some general agreement how each style writes it based on what I've seen over the decades.

 

[HighKick]

As a beginner, I love Kata. Kata directs my energy while practicing solo. Kata gives me a sense of accomplishment when I eventually do it correctly. Kata challenges me. If I can do a Kata correctly I can move on to learn more Karate. Kata teaches me correct movement. Kata gauges my progress.

Obviously I am a proponent of Kata.

In my opinion Kata provides posterity for the style. GO SHOTOKAN!

Do Katas become more difficult in progression? I'm learning Heianan Sandan and so far it is by far the most difficult for me to learn. Ima get it before the next time I see My Sensei in a few days. I have 1/2 of it learned.

Should I be capitalizing the word 'Kata'? Should I be capitalizing 'Sensei'?

Do Katas become more difficult in progression?

This applies to a specific (TKD) form set, but the last form/kata/poomsae is rather easy and very easy to learn. Why? because the people who really need to know and learn it are going to be advanced in age and probably not as spry as they once were.

A far as capitalization, follow normal grammar. If used in the possessive or when addressing, capitalize.

 

[Leviathan]

Definitely yes.

Katas are to martial arts what leeches and blood letting were to medicine: crap that people mistook for gold.

You don’t need katas to pass on or train a martial art. It is a waste of time that could be spent on something useful: kihon, partner drills, sparring, hitting bags or pads, conditioning…

You don’t see soccer or tennis players practicing an imaginary game with an imaginary ball, imaginary opponents, an imaginary net etc.

Looking for something beautiful? Consider dance, ballet or ice skating.

Katas are still present in quite a few martial arts because of a useless tradition. And IMHO people defending them have just been brainwashed into believing they are the core or something useful of their martial art. Or maybe they cannot admit that they have wasted so much time and energy on something so useless. Those who can or realize probably drop the martial art and move on to something more hands on.

 

[geezer]

...Katas are to martial arts what leeches and blood letting were to medicine: crap that people mistook for gold.

Ironically, even this opening statement is controversial and not the "ironclad truth" you presume it to be. The use of leeches is making a comeback in some medical circles. My dad and uncle were surgeons, and I don't think they would have been big on the idea, but science demands investigation. Check out this paper from the NIH library of medicine for yourself:

Leech Therapeutic Applications - PMC

Hematophagous animals including leeches have been known to possess biologically active compounds in their secretions, especially in their saliva. The blood-sucking annelids, leeches have been used for therapeutic purposes since the beginning of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You don’t need katas to pass on or train a martial art. It is a waste of time that could be spent on something useful: kihon, partner drills, sparring, hitting bags or pads, conditioning…

Some arts are more about tradition and patterns, others more about actual self defense, combat, or competition. You may not need katas or forms for defense, fighting or competition, and maybe that's all you care about, but that is not what all martial arts are about.

You don’t see soccer or tennis players practicing an imaginary game with an imaginary ball, imaginary opponents, an imaginary net etc.

At the really basic levels you do see people practicing solo... you know things like their tennis, golf, baseball swing, etc., then honing it working on a backboard, the batting cage or driving range. Your coach doesn't just make a correction and send you back out in the game! Skill an good form takes repetition to develop and internalize.

Looking for something beautiful? Consider dance, ballet or ice skating.

...or kata/forms?

Katas are still present in quite a few martial arts because of a useless tradition. And IMHO people defending them have just been brainwashed into believing they are the core or something useful of their martial art. Or maybe they cannot admit that they have wasted so much time and energy on something so useless. Those who can or realize probably drop the martial art and move on to something more hands on.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of forms, and I think they are of limited value in training for sparring, competitive fights, bar brawling, and/or self-defense. But as far as their history and practice in the martial arts and their value in preserving and transmitting the character of the art? ...Well, let me put it this way: Your "IMHO" is severely lacking in the "H" category!

 

[skribs]

You don’t see soccer or tennis players practicing an imaginary game with an imaginary ball, imaginary opponents, an imaginary net etc.

You don't?

Guess I must have hallucinated it.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I see them largely as performance art- works of art that don't really have a direct parallel in the west. There's no doubt that they do encourage athletic skills such as balance and technical bits of karate. I've also come to appreciate them a lot more while my hand has been injured as they're something that one can do without actually hitting anything and one one's own. But I'm interested largely in an artistic capacity- I went to art college and so stuff like this is interesting to me.

 

[Gyakuto]

It interest me to and I see parallels between kata and dance so I invested in this to explore the ideas further

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Cool! I might buy that for my mum and dad for chistmas, they're dancers

 

[Gyakuto]

Cool! I might buy that for my mum and dad for chistmas, they're dancers

Unless they’re neuroscientists/psychologist I wouldn’t, it’s a hard going and a cure for insomnia.

 

[Old CJ]

You don’t need katas to pass on or train a martial art. It is a waste of time that could be spent on something useful: kihon, partner drills, sparring, hitting bags or pads, conditioning…

What you consider a waste of your time, I find it to be an enjoyable pastime.

Also, thank you Geezer. I like what you said "Some arts are more about tradition and patterns, others more about actual self defense, combat, or competition. You may not need katas or forms for defense, fighting or competition, and maybe that's all you care about, but that is not what all martial arts are about.".

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Unless they’re neuroscientists/psychologist I wouldn’t, it’s a hard going and a cure for insomnia.

Ah, OK. I already have a cure for insomnia, I read my dad's old mechanical engineering textbooks. I was told to find boring subject matter for sleep hygiene reasons, so I elected to read about machine tools that haven't been in mainstream use for decades. The problem is, you kind of get into it, the more you read about it.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I'm reading the pinan flow books by john titchen and Ian Aberthy. Or rather I SHOULD be...

 

[Hot Lunch]

I don't know if I answered the OP's question directly, but...

I will say "yes," we make to much of it in the sense that we strive to achieve that "perfect" form. Then there's those WKF kata competitions and all that, where the focus is on aesthetics.

Basically, we care about kata "looking good."

Of course, there's always a "correct" way to do the kata - making sure you're in the right stance at each step, whole body/half body and all that... but once you have that down, does continuing to refine your kata beyond that really matter in a self-defense situation?

Shouldn't the focus of the kata be strictly on the application if, indeed, kata is supposed to be a training tool?

Who cares if a particular part of your body is half a centimeter from where it "should" be - in a real self-defense scenario, you have to put your block where it will intercept the attacker's strike, not where the person judging your kata says you should put it.

 

[Gyakuto]

Unless they’re neuroscientists/psychologist I wouldn’t, it’s a hard going and a cure for insomnia.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm reading the pinan flow books by john titchen and Ian Aberthy. Or rather I SHOULD be...

The flow/interconnectivity between striking and grappling is, I believe, a cornerstone of original karate. But it has come to be that these two have evolved to be considered two different things. It's a matter of how you view it. In wrestling, striking is not allowed. In boxing, grappling is not allowed. They have been separated for the purpose of sport. And this thinking worked its way into 1930's karate. Karate was a striking art - period!

But when it's not sport there's no need to conceptually separate them. They can both be considered one thing: Fighting. Just as one can attack punch-parry-elbow, one can punch-parry-grab and pull-elbow-takedown. Karate is mostly a striking art, but not by as much as we think. A big chunk (1/3?) is based on grappling, a concept largely lost over the decades. Most schools have only been practicing 2/3 of karate!!! Luckily, there are traditional kata that have preserved this chunk of lost karate. From this we can re-integrate the two sides of fighting into the one it was meant to be.

And some say old kata have no value!