Do We Make Too Much of Kata?

[Flying Crane]

It interest me to and I see parallels between kata and dance so I invested in this to explore the ideas further

View attachment 31360

In the distant past I dated a woman who is a trained, professional dancer. Her main venue was modern dance in its various iterations, but she was solidly trained in ballet and jazz and other stuff I don’t remember.

She was also very much interested in martial arts, and I met her when she walked for the first time into the capoeira school where I was training. She joined the school for a while but also had some background and interest in Hung Ga.

She was a talented dancer and could move in some amazing ways, did some beautiful performances. However, there was definitely something of a gap when it came to her capoeira (I was in no position to judge her Hung Ga as I had no background in it). Her capoeira was both stiff and unrooted. She did the “shape” of the movement/technique essentially correctly, but there was a “quality” to the movement that was very different and was never quite right in the context of capoeira. Granted, she did not train capoeira for long and perhaps with more training she would have cleaned that up. But it was clear to me that she was moving like a dancer when she was doing capoeira. On a superficial level, it is tempting to see parallels and similarities between martial arts and dance, especially when considering kata. From my observations (I recognize that this is an anecdotal sample of one) there is no clear and obvious connection between dance and martial arts even an art like capoeira that has a rhythmic and musical aspect to it. Comparing kata with dance completely misunderstands both of them, including that “quality” of movement that I always notice.

I would not look to dance as an avenue to understanding kata.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see them largely as performance art- works of art that don't really have a direct parallel in the west.

I don’t see them as performance art at all, something they were not originally intended to be, although I recognize that some schools have deliberately turned them into that. It’s unfortunate if that has been your experience. You do not need to like kata, you do not need to include it in your training, it is entirely possible (obviously) to develop solid martial skills without including kata in the training. Do what you find interesting and what makes sense to you. But if you want to talk about kata, with people who DO understand it and who use it in their training, it would be a smart move to gain a genuine understanding of it. Otherwise you are simply making comments on a topic about which you know little or nothing.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Wooooah, you're a dick

 

[Flying Crane]

Wooooah, you're a dick

I was thinking much the same about you. But instead of calling you a name, I suggested you educate yourself about something you clearly know little about.

Education is a good thing.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Yup. Definetly a dick.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yup. Definetly a dick.

because I pointed out a gap in your knowledge? Ok then. I’ll make sure to just smile and nod next time.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Dude, piss off. I'm actually pretty knowledgable about kata, as it goes, and you're just being a pain the **** for the sake of it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Wooooah, you're a dick

The grinning face helps, but not enough. There are better ways to express yourself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Form/drills are just partner drills without partner. When you are by yourself, solo drills training can "polish" your skill.

 

[geezer]

Dude, piss off. I'm actually pretty knowledgable about kata, as it goes, and you're just being a pain the **** for the sake of it.

Flying Crane are misunderstanding each other. Just chill guys!

...it's something I've struggled with often enough. My wife and adult children says it's because I'm "neurodevelopmentally atypical". Funny, I always took it as a complement. That's what going to art school did for me!

BTW I've done a little checking on the name Dick. Up until the mid 20th century it was really popular. Then, well not so much. My parents told me that the only reason my older brother wasn't named Dick was because my mom preferred the name Peter .
So they compromised and named him ...Doug?!?.

Sometimes I think my parents had it right the first time!

 

[Flying Crane]

Dude, piss off. I'm actually pretty knowledgable about kata, as it goes, and you're just being a pain the **** for the sake of

No.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Back in the day, regular class time was divided into all types of training:

15% physical conditioning
30% basic drills
20% two-man practice
20% kata
15% freestyle sparring

When I had my Chinese wrestling class, 80% of the time was spending in partner drills (develop). 20% of the time was spending on wrestling (test).

We don't train solo drills (polish) and weight training (enhance) in class. Students train it at home by themselves.

 

[geezer]

No.

Yes.



...The fact is that kata is useless and only an idiot would waste time with it. That said, I'm logging off to go and work some forms.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
It might behoove one and all to remember that we're supposed to be a friendly place hereabouts, and that cheap shots seldom make a solid case or rebuttal...

Because if they don't, someone might have to put their official Moderation Staff hat on. And that'd be no fun at all...

A word to the wise is enough right?

 

[Leviathan]

Ironically, even this opening statement is controversial and not the "ironclad truth" you presume it to be. The use of leeches is making a comeback in some medical circles. My dad and uncle were surgeons, and I don't think they would have been big on the idea, but science demands investigation. Check out this paper from the NIH library of medicine for yourself:

Leech Therapeutic Applications - PMC

Hematophagous animals including leeches have been known to possess biologically active compounds in their secretions, especially in their saliva. The blood-sucking annelids, leeches have been used for therapeutic purposes since the beginning of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Some arts are more about tradition and patterns, others more about actual self defense, combat, or competition. You may not need katas or forms for defense, fighting or competition, and maybe that's all you care about, but that is not what all martial arts are about.

At the really basic levels you do see people practicing solo... you know things like their tennis, golf, baseball swing, etc., then honing it working on a backboard, the batting cage or driving range. Your coach doesn't just make a correction and send you back out in the game! Skill an good form takes repetition to develop and internalize.

...or kata/forms?

Personally, I am not a huge fan of forms, and I think they are of limited value in training for sparring, competitive fights, bar brawling, and/or self-defense. But as far as their history and practice in the martial arts and their value in preserving and transmitting the character of the art? ...Well, let me put it this way: Your "IMHO" is severely lacking in the "H" category!

Of course my opening statement is controversial. Even snake oil had its defenders: those making money out of it, basing their reputation on it or badly informed. Same for katas.

You can devote your time to katas if you find them beautiful but then don't call that a martial art; call it an art, a choreography or gymnastics. Be honest, even if the truth is unpleasant.

As to your last sentence (which is a poor diversion from / a poor answer to your previous one by the way): Resorting to killing the messenger is quite common when you don't like the message or your arguments fall short.

Have a nice day anyway.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Of course my opening statement is controversial. Even snake oil had its defenders: those making money out of it, basing their reputation on it or badly informed. Same for katas.

You can devote your time to katas if you find them beautiful but then don't call that a martial art; call it an art, a choreography or gymnastics. Be honest, even if the truth is unpleasant.

As to your last sentence (which is a poor diversion from / a poor answer to your previous one by the way): Resorting to killing the messenger is quite common when you don't like the message or your arguments fall short.

Have a nice day anyway.

May I ask: What is your style? How long have you studied? How many kata do you know? Just trying to get an idea of the experience that leads you to your opinion re: kata. Thank you.

 

[geezer]

As to your last sentence (which is a poor diversion from / a poor answer to your previous one by the way): Resorting to killing the messenger is quite common when you don't like the message or your arguments fall short.

Odd response to a post where I actually agreed with you ...up to a point. On the other hand I also respect the POV of others who may place more value on kata or forms than I. That's what I found lacking in your previous post. No problem. You have a right to your opinion. Just consider switching from using the abbreviation "IMHO" to the simpler and more direct "IMO". I suits you!

BTW, I wouldn't want to "kill the messenger" ...but I do like to poke fun at people sometimes. And expect the same in return.

Have a nice day anyway.

Well, it's already getting late here, but I will try to enjoy the rest of the evening. You too!

 

[HighKick]

Definitely yes.

Katas are to martial arts what leeches and blood letting were to medicine: crap that people mistook for gold.

You don’t need katas to pass on or train a martial art. It is a waste of time that could be spent on something useful: kihon, partner drills, sparring, hitting bags or pads, conditioning…

You don’t see soccer or tennis players practicing an imaginary game with an imaginary ball, imaginary opponents, an imaginary net etc.

Looking for something beautiful? Consider dance, ballet or ice skating.

Katas are still present in quite a few martial arts because of a useless tradition. And IMHO people defending them have just been brainwashed into believing they are the core or something useful of their martial art. Or maybe they cannot admit that they have wasted so much time and energy on something so useless. Those who can or realize probably drop the martial art and move on to something more hands on.

Sooo, what do you do when you have no partner, or equipment to train on? You shadow box/train, aka kata.

You are Very wrong about other sport athletes not practicing mental drills. Done ALL the time.

I can only assume you are speaking from a "Hulk smash", limited experience, or very entitled position.

You appear to be completely unaware that katas/poomsae are a high-level, worldwide, even Olympic level competition.

Just a truly senseless post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You don’t need katas to pass on or train a martial art.

Nobody will say books in the library are useless. Form is just liked a textbook. It is used to record strategies/techniques for teaching and learning purpose.

The book may only record, "I love you". When you have learned "I love you" in a book, you should also come up with

- You love me.
- I hate you.
- ...

 

[Badhabits]

It is so weird the extent to which kata are maligned by a lot of people. I honestly can't think of any other training/teaching tool that gets the same intensity of contempt as kata. Why??? Understandable not liking it but daaaaang why so much hate. What makes kata so much sillier than other solo exercises?