Explaining Kata/Forms to Those Who Don't Do Them

[Kung Fu Wang]

if we asked every kata creator in Okinawa...

The Chinese wrestling has 24 solo drills. If link them together, it can be a form. The following clip shows the first 6 drills. Please notice that

- drill 1, 2, 3, 4 have only hand move.
- drill 5, 6 have only leg moves.

I have asked the form creator (my teacher). He told me that it was created to help beginner easy to learn. If you do this form exactly as shown in the following clip when you are 80 years old, you may have consider yourself as "beginner" all your life. The creator (my teacher) told me that after you have passed your "beginner training stage", the proper way to train is to add proper

- leg move into drill 1, 2, 3, 4, and
- hand move into drill 5, 6

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you think then that kata should 'record' every single technique a martial arts style has? What are your thoughts on Bunkai then?

IMO, your "door guarding skill" should be in the forms. This way it's easy for the future generation to teach to their students and not to be forgotten. Since your "door guarding skill" may be different from your teacher's, or his teacher's, or even the style foundation's, not to modify a tradition form can be a problem.

 

[Tez3]

The irony of your point is that you have made it in a forum of talk but the content offered by you is paraphrased and echoed by the popular expression "Shut up and train".


But Motobu Choki makes it clear that someone who just trains and doesnt party and socialize has flavorless kata and art.*

I suspect that the response offered would depend on the time and place the question was asked.

I know that I wouldn't be asking the master's while class was "in session" but more after class, perhaps on the way to a pub-ish place for a drink.


*
"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art (karate) of someone who is too serious has no flavour."-Choki Motobu

The irony is that my 'point' was merely a joke, you know... a light hearted quip, a witticism nothing more.

'I am not bound to please thee with my answer' Shakespeare

 

[TSDTexan]

Well ... meaning is always subjective. Absent some conscious, subjective observer, things do not have an inherent objective meaning. They just are. A rock just is. An apple just is. A star just is. Even an original manuscript of sheet music written by Mozart just is.

All these things have meaning only in that they are meaningful to someone. That apple means one thing to a starving man. It means something else to a junk food addict starting a new diet. The Mozart sheet music meant one thing to Mozart. It means another thing to a modern student of classical music. It means another thing to a librarian specializing in preservation of historical documents. It means another thing to a Britney Spears fan.

A given kata may have had a specific meaning intended by whoever originally designed it (although in many cases we have no way of knowing for sure what that intended meaning was). That original intended meaning may not be the same meaning it had to the various people who altered it as the kata evolved over generations. It may or may not correspond to any of the various meanings that it has to the thousands of people who practice it today. All those meanings are subjective. None of them are objective.

A skeptic can contend that our knowledge is limited to the realm of our own subjective impressions, allowing us no knowledge of objective reality as it is in itself.

But intersubjective measure finds congruence with objective reality. Some have things have objective observed meaning in and of themeselves.

Hot object above in sky, burns pale skin red.
Violent water makes dead things.
Big Cliff falling kills animals below.

We are able gain purchase on obective reality, through combined sense data and communication.

Death is an objective reality that is universally understood by observation.

Even the innocent of mind gain meaning and understanding of it after exposure. Barring of course, the mentally infirm, and the children's mind before or about age 5. Perhaps they (2 types) cannot understand that when something dies, they stop moving and are no longer with those who are.

There are higher orders or states of significance within meaning.... and at that point I will agree with you that meaning becomes as subjective as the thought patterns and vocabulary to express them, of a group of individual persons.

Does something that once have had meaning, but the original intent or meaning has been lost or altered signify that this thing is now meaningless?

Necessary? Really? So you can't be a Karateka unless you drink alcohol?
The only people for whom it is "Necessary to drink alcohol" are alcoholics.

Pursuing other fun activities I agree with.

Well... perhaps you can discuss the matter with Choki Motobu at some point. I suspect the employment of hyperbole or overstatement by Choki here.

 

[Tez3]

IMO, your "door guarding skill" should be in the forms. This way it's easy for the future generation to teach to their students and not to be forgotten. Since your "door guarding skill" may be different from your teacher's, or his teacher's, or even the style foundation's, not to modify a tradition form can be a problem.

What do you mean by 'door guarding' skills, I don't understand what you mean by that expression nor does it answer my questions.

 

[TSDTexan]

The irony is that my 'point' was merely a joke, you know... a light hearted quip, a witticism nothing more.

'I am not bound to please thee with my answer' Shakespeare

Good. I am not interested in bound people for my pleasure.
As for jokes...I was prepared to tell you one about marmalade.... but now I won't.

You would just spread it around.

 

[TSDTexan]

What do you mean by 'door guarding' skills, I don't understand what you mean by that expression nor does it answer my questions.

Open Door are open lines (unguarded) of attack to the body.

Getting someone's arm to move out of the way is opening a door/gate.

There is an ancient northern chinese proverb: "The arms are the swinging doors but the leg is the real weapon"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you mean by 'door guarding' skills', ...

"Door guarding skill" means the skill that you use it to guard your front door (your best technique). It may be in your forms, or it may not be.

For example, the "leg twist" was one of my teacher's best moves. It requires circular hopping footwork and leg twisting motion. It's not in any form that you can find on this planet. Also no matter how much imagination that you may have, you still won't be able to map any move in your form into this application.

IMO, if some important information is not in your forms and just a stand along piece of information, soon or later it can be lost through time. To me, form is a good place to record it. If people in the past didn't record it, people in our generation should record it.

 

[Tez3]

"Door guarding skill" means the skill that you use it to guard your front door (your last line defense). It means the "major" MA skills that you have developed through your life time. It may be in your forms, or it may not be.

This I assume is a common phrase in your style? I've never heard it used in mine at all besides I'm not sure a front door would the last line of defence anyway Nor am I sure the phrase makes much sense, perhaps it does to you but really, no, I've decided, it means nothing to me at all.

 

[Tez3]

Open Door are open lines (unguarded) of attack to the body.
View attachment 19655

Getting someone's arm to move out of the way is opening a door/gate.

There is an ancient northern chinese proverb: "The arms are the swinging doors but the leg is the real weapon"

I've not done it in that way but it makes much more sense to me than defending actual doors!

 

[TSDTexan]

Here is a hint about doors. Same proverb different version.

 

[TSDTexan]

"Door guarding skill" means the skill that you use it to guard your front door (your best technique). It may be in your forms, or it may not be.

For example, the "leg twist" was one of my teacher's best moves. It requires circular hopping footwork and leg twisting motion. It's not in any form that you can find on this planet.

IMO, if some important information is not in your forms and just a piece information here and another piece information there, soon or later it can be lost easily through time.

Ahh the inner door disciple of the kwoon. Different door reference.

Yes.. often a great deal of the finer wines are not served to the initiate or outer-door/courtyard student. Years of dutiful service in which trust by a master was established with a candidate typically preceded revealing the most dangerous or effective of techniques.

In karate there are various levels of bunkai in which fine details are taught to students level headed enough to not go out using them unless nesscessity forced the issue, as well as... not running off with the secret sauce to a competing school etc.

 

[TSDTexan]

"Door guarding skill" means the skill that you use it to guard your front door (your best technique). It may be in your forms, or it may not be.

For example, the "leg twist" was one of my teacher's best moves. It requires circular hopping footwork and leg twisting motion. It's not in any form that you can find on this planet. Also no matter how much imagination that you may have, you still won't be able to map any move in your form into this application.

IMO, if some important information is not in your forms and just a stand along piece of information, soon or later it can be lost through time. To me, form is a good place to record it. If people in the past didn't record, people in our generation should record it.

Video don't work

 

[TSDTexan]

I've not done it in that way but it makes much more sense to me than defending actual doors!

No he isn't talking about a material door.
Or the first one I mentioned.

He is talking about inner circle disciple/master secrets.
About not having them in the showroom floor, where anyone can learn them.

Inner door students guard the temple treasure. (Knowledge)
Outer door students guard movement... that which they are given to take with them.
Masters guard the highest treasure (Wisdom) which is when to move one student from outer to inner door.

 

[Tez3]

I keep a cricket bat by my front door!
I'm sure, in fact, positive kata is really not that complicated and really shouldn't be getting into that whole 'kung Fu Caine' stuff. I like my martial arts pragmatic not all mystic and full of pseudo Eastern saying, if I want them I ask my Gurkha friend who usually comes out with something delightfully short and pithy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Video don't work

It should work now.

This I assume is a common phrase in your style? I've never heard it used in mine at all besides I'm not sure a front door would the last line of defence anyway Nor am I sure the phrase makes much sense, perhaps it does to you but really, no, I've decided, it means nothing to me at all.

I assume the Chinese term is foreign to you as the Japanese terms is foreign to me.

看家本领 (Kan Jia Ben Ling) - door guarding skill" means "特别擅长的技能 your best skill".

• one's speciality [special skill]
• An ace up one's sleeve; to display the creativity; Ace up one's sleeve

 

[Tez3]

No he isn't talking about a material door.
Or the first one I mentioned.

He is talking about inner circle disciple/master secrets.
About not having them in the showroom floor, where anyone can learn them.

Doesn't work for me nor most martial artists I know, we like things open and honest. No master, no disciples and no secrets.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

skeptic can contend that our knowledge is limited to the realm of our own subjective impressions, allowing us no knowledge of objective reality as it is in itself.

But intersubjective measure finds congruence with objective reality. Some have things have objective observed meaning in and of themeselves.

Hot object above in sky, burns pale skin red.
Violent water makes dead things.
Big Cliff falling kills animals below.

We are able gain purchase on obective reality, through combined sense data and communication.

I'm certainly not questioning the existence of objective physical reality. (The limitations of our ability to directly apprehend said reality is another topic and a pretty deep one.) I'm saying that existence is not the same as meaning. Imagine a universe with no sentient beings. What would a rock mean? A waterfall? A star? They would physically exist, but how could you say that they meant anything without someone for them to mean something to?

Meaning is inherently subjective.

 

[Buka]

I'm certainly not questioning the existence of objective physical reality. (The limitations of our ability to directly apprehend said reality is another topic and a pretty deep one.) I'm saying that existence is not the same as meaning. Imagine a universe with no sentient beings. What would a rock mean? A waterfall? A star? They would physically exist, but how could you say that they meant anything without someone for them to mean something to?

Meaning is inherently subjective.

I wish I knew how to do an emiticon of a no Bogarting Cheshire Cat smile from the sixties. That would rule.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm certainly not questioning the existence of objective physical reality. (The limitations of our ability to directly apprehend said reality is another topic and a pretty deep one.) I'm saying that existence is not the same as meaning. Imagine a universe with no sentient beings. What would a rock mean? A waterfall? A star? They would physically exist, but how could you say that they meant anything without someone for them to mean something to?

Meaning is inherently subjective.

Tony... my main man... I can imagine a great many things.

However.... a universe without a even a single self aware being is beyond my wildest imagination.

My view is tempered with a number of ontological presuppositions that I cannot easily unburden myself of.

For example:
The Kalam Cosmological Argument as offered by
Dr. William Lane Craig

It may be formulated as follows:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(Therefore there is a Prime Mover.)


I won't jack the thread to venture beyond what I have posted above... and I would love to spawn a seperate thread to explore theory and opinions in what department is appropriate?
Tavern forum?
What forum is the navel contemplator/one hand sound clapping talks located?