Do We Make Too Much of Kata?

[Bill Mattocks]

Our perception of kata has gone thru many stages over the past hundred years and more. When I started karate in the 60's, kata was a simple thing - using basic blocks, kicks and punches (and a chop or two) to fight off a bunch of attackers coming from all directions, just like a good kung fu movie. And there were a few moves we weren't sure what the hell they were. But we were satisfied to remain blissfully ignorant or put some cool philosophical or dramatic meaning to them. Anyway, it didn't matter too much. Afterall, kata wasn't real fighting. The idea of kata was posture, stance, crisp execution and, above all, looking good.

Then, in the 1990's into the early 2000's, a different interpretation began to be revealed. We had it all wrong! Many of those basic moves were really locks and breaks, and that stepping around to face a new attacker was really throwing the old attacker down. The old style of karate was discovered to be close-in combat with a lot of grabbing and twisting. Who knew!

Now we have some sensei jumping in with both feet into the advanced kata application game saying, "If we take this punch and redirect it over there, grab the arm, then, instead of sliding in as the kata shows, just duck and pivot in a 360, take a couple of extra steps and change the elbow into a circular block, we can see this combo is really a double dislocate and backflip body slam." Yes, we've learned that TMA kata is designed to be somewhat flexible, but really?!

Kata was not meant to be complicated. It really is composed of the basics - the basics as taught in the 1800's - basics capable of dispatching a pirate or bandit with minimum risk and maximum efficiency. This translates into simplicity. Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually the best. I see kata sort of like kihon (basic drills), but volume 2 containing the other basics that all too often we don't drill put into a combat context. Kata is not a repository of arcane techniques, nor is it simply sport, nor an elementary form of practice. It's just karate.

"Before a man studies Zen, to him mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after he gets an insight into the truth of Zen through the instruction of a good master, mountains to him are not mountains and waters are not waters; but after this when he really attains to the abode of rest, mountains are once more mountains and waters are waters."

 

[Hot Lunch]

Since each two-block set hits the arm on the same side it doesn't look like a joint attack. If it was, the blocks would attack the arm from opposing directions, thus locking the elbow. I see the move as the first block deflecting the punch and the second block continuing the deflection even further to partially turn the opponent around.

But the above bunkai does not include any counter-attack after the blocks to take advantage of the position gained. Most TMA kata series do not end on a block as it leaves the opponent free to attack again. So, it's possible the second outward "block" may actually be a backfist.

This is what led me to interpret it was hyperextending elbows. Because there "must" be a counter-attack before turning.

On the initial turn around to the rear, attacker punches with the right hand. You then execute an uchi uke with your left arm in half-body. You then hold the attacker's arm in place (or pull it slightly towards you), come into full body, placing your right arm underneath so that when you execute an uchi uke with your right arm, it comes up from behind their arm and strikes it.

When turning back to the front, opponent punches with right hand, you execute soto uke with your left arm in full body. You then hold the attacker's arm in place, come into half body and hyperextend their elbow with an uchi uke from your right arm.

Turn to your right, scoop the kick, opponent punches with left hand. You execute a soto uke with your right arm, hold their left arm in place, and hyperextend with a left uchi uke.

At the end of the day, whether a backfist or hyperextension of the elbow - it's all about what allows up to get home safe that night.

 

[skribs]

I'd love to try and train bunkai with someone to see if I'm wrong, but in my opinion it's all just connecting the dots with things you already know to what best matches from a kata, and not the other way around.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When turning back to the front, opponent punches with right hand, you execute soto uke with your left arm in full body. You then hold the attacker's arm in place, come into half body and hyperextend their elbow with an uchi uke from your right arm.

It's possible. Grabbing after the first block makes the difference.

ANOTHER bunkai, perhaps the best one: The grab is executed on the second block. Then the following step pulls the opponent around hyperextending the elbow and the first "block" of the second series does the break. It's a matter of how you group a kata's moves into series. Stepping and turning often does NOT indicate a "new" opponent, but rather still dealing with the first one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here is my similar process of fighting skills that supposedly are taught in tai chi forms. Note that techniques are not mentioned...

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

I don't necessarily agree that all tai chi tactics and techniques are practical...

My wave hands like clouds is a strike (hook punch).

 

[JowGaWolf]

I also don't agree that tai chi tactics and techniques are practical because the missing of the leg skills.

If you always sweep your opponent's leading leg when he put weight on, all those Taiji tactics will be meaningless. But Taij people don't want to talk about foot sweep.

I sweep the front leg all the time with out problem because the sweep sets up a shin bite.
Plan A sweep
Plan B shin bite with the option to sweep after shin bite. As soon as shin bite eases pressure your opponent will want to move his leg, sweep then.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's what grappling dummies are for.

I worked real hard to quit referring to students by that phrase...

 

[granfire]

kata is a lot of things, and it's a lot of things it is not.
It is a learning tool. I remember my beginner days, unable to find the end to Chong Chi. (insert Spongebob voice here 'three hours later....')
I thought I would never be able to learn the advanced moves.
Fast forward to the blue belt form which I literally nailed after 2 classes.

It's the means to develop muscle memory, strength, flexibility, and endurance without getting clobbered all the time. Practice correct technique before stepping onto the sparring floor.

It is practiced mindfulness. It is a super workout for the brain, and it works on rewiring it.
A friend who trained with me tried to explain how the performance of the kata was helping her to break decade old thought patterns. Another lady, a chance encounter in front of the community pool taught me similar. The lady had been a missionary in Korea. There she experienced her first husband spiraling into a mental breakdown of some sort as they progressed in their training. Doing things you don't normally do rewires your brain. (you can read that up by Moshe Feldenkrais. He's the expert in such things)

Kata then also lets you practice things you cannot do to a partner, like a hearty eye gouge or peach picking monkeys.....
Of course, one has to know just what the move actually is.

But most of all muscle memory, I guess: When I composed a musical freestyle for a tournament, I was going to do a forearm block, inner, I believe. I had no intention of adding a punch after. Since I had been doing the green belt form so much and helping teach it in the kids classes, I was absolutely unable to not punch after the block. As it should be.
If one of course just slops through the kata, save your time. You are not getting anything out of it. If you do it right, it is some awesome low impact (for most parts, safe the 360 jumps) exercise.
And of course a good deal of meditation in motion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In a video that someone puts up that make me think. Will you create a form that has upward block without a follow up punch? If the answer is yes, why?

Why do you want to train defense without offense instead of defense and offense at the same time?

 

[skribs]

I worked real hard to quit referring to students by that phrase...

Probably a good thing you did, considering I was implying the grappling dummy is used for relationship simulations.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Probably a good thing you did, considering I was implying the grappling dummy is used for relationship simulations.

Well, Mrs. Dog is one of my students...

 

[isshinryuronin]

If solo kata are at all practical, it’s funny how modern combat arts haven’t adopted them into their schedule of practise.

To clarify, could you please list some of these arts? I was just referring to karate. Iai and grappling related arts' kata may have a different origin and purpose.

 

[Fungus]

I was going to say yes, but then i see the thread wasn't "Do We Make Too Much Kata?".

One derivative of Kyokushin, Ashihara - founded by one of the early skilled instructors of kyokushin, is pretty much kyokyushin but with no "traditional kata", and strong advocate of tai sabaki. All katas are directly coming from fighting in the sense that I think most if not all kata are performed in fighting stance. It is very symphatetic IMO!

Ashihara Karate Kata

All the KATA in NEW INTERNATIONAL KARATE ORGANISATION!

www.youtube.com

 

[Flying Crane]

. I read an interview with the founder of Wado Ryu, Hironori Ohtsuka, who suggested there are too many kata in the repertoire and he wished he’d done away with even more of them when devising his school in favour of more two person kata (kihon gumite) which add further complications that require practise and study and are more applicable to fighting than solo kata.

I do not believe they are. The two-person forms that I have any experience with struck me as more of an exercise in cooperative movement. That can lead to unrealistic expectations.

 

[Flying Crane]

If solo kata are at all practical, it’s funny how modern combat arts haven’t adopted them into their schedule of practise. They haven’t because they’re not. They’re part of a tradition of which we don’t want to let go.

This is not in line with my experience. I find them very useful. Whether or not modern combat sports choose to use them is irrelevant. Their methods work just fine for them and they apparently see no need for kata/forms. But to take that to mean that kata is not useful and functional in developing combat skills would be myopic in the extreme. There are more than one method that works. People gravitate to those methods with which they feel a connection and that feels right to them. Variety is the spice of life, thankfully. If there was some Uber-law that said I could only practice a combat sport (without forms) because some myopic Uber-deity decided it is the best, I would go back to long distance running.

 

[Flying Crane]

I should qualify all I’m saying: I love kata, I think they’re great to study and refine and wonderful to watch, but I don’t think they’re ‘special training methods’.

Has anyone said that they are “special training methods?” They are simply training methods. They work. But they are not a great method for everyone. Not everyone will relate well to that method. Those people should do other things, that do not use kata. I am sure they will do just fine. Maybe even reach excellence.

But those sporting methods that do not use kata, likewise are not the best fit for everyone. Not everyone relates to or is interested in what those methods offer. For them, perhaps a kata method is the better choice.

See where I’m going with this?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Big difference is that when you train for combat sports, you're training for the ring and what's legal in the ring.

For everything that's not legal in any combat sport, there's kata.

 

[skribs]

I was going to say yes, but then i see the thread wasn't "Do We Make Too Much Kata?".

One derivative of Kyokushin, Ashihara - founded by one of the early skilled instructors of kyokushin, is pretty much kyokyushin but with no "traditional kata", and strong advocate of tai sabaki. All katas are directly coming from fighting in the sense that I think most if not all kata are performed in fighting stance. It is very symphatetic IMO!

Ashihara Karate Kata

All the KATA in NEW INTERNATIONAL KARATE ORGANISATION!

www.youtube.com

That's certainly interesting. It's kind of like in my TKD school, we had "Punch Technique" and "Kick Technique" that were sort of like mini-katas, and done with less artistic license than the techniques in the forms (but still more focus on aesthetics than direct application). For example, Punch #2 was reverse punch, step, reverse punch, Punch #3 was sliding knee, jab-reverse punch, etc.

 

[Gyakuto]

To clarify, could you please list some of these arts? I was just referring to karate. Iai and grappling related arts' kata may have a different origin and purpose.

Boxing
MMA
Kick Boxing
Krav Maga
Ameridote (I think)

 

[Gyakuto]

I do not believe they are. The two-person forms that I have any experience with struck me as more of an exercise in cooperative movement. That can lead to unrealistic expectations.

And solo kata doesn’t involve ‘cooperative movement’ (with kaso teki) which may lead to unrealistic expectations? The only method that doesn’t lead to unrealistic expectations is fighting with lots of different types of opponent.

Kata are a beautiful discipline that teach the kata’s moves and will provide some transferable skills. Kata are to combat what weight training is to boxing perhaps.