Do We Make Too Much of Kata?

[Badhabits]

I subscribe to the idea of kata being templates of sorts. Learn this kata, here's a bunch of ideas to expand upon. Gyakuto mentioned stem cells- on a fellows blog he describes the basic movements in kata as "stem cell movements", basic movements which are meant to be adapted and changed to fit the situation (while still adhering to mechanical principles which allows those movements to be effective) Another idea I like very much.
As far as being adopted by combat arts- someone who's had a ton of practice fighting, and especially grappling is going to sense what you're doing and not fall for it- so much of the kata applications are in close/attached to the opponent. It's stuff that a person with a ton of fighting experience can easily sense and defend from. At least until superior timing and trickery comes into play. And if you're training specifically to not have to trade blows with a person, you're going to get into the stuff that's contained in kata anyway even if you're not trying to. It just magically starts to appear

 

[Holmejr]

Speaking as a an FMA student where kata’s aren’t necessarily practiced, I believe that kata’s are a beautiful expression of an art and I love seeing them done well. If one doesn’t appreciate them, then I believe they are missing out on something beautiful. Kinda like watching Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly dance and saying “I don’t get it”. With all that said, does it help in fight competition or combat? How the heck am I supposed to know!

 

[isshinryuronin]

A kata may contain techniques, but leave out principles of rhythm, timing, strategy and tactics possibly by design.

Not so much by design, but by necessity. Kata has limitations. Some skills and understanding can only be developed by working against a live opponent. The qualities you listed are to a large degree behavioral and depend on reading and manipulating the opponent's psyche. I think this is too much subtlety to expect from a kata. While kata may illustrate a bit of these principles it can't really teach how to employ them. Only personal interaction with another can develop them.

 

[Buka]

So here is a mate of mine doing kata.

But he doesn't fight like that.

Good point.

Nobody fights like that, but, nobody does pushups in the middle of a fight, or stretches, or hits a bag. Doesn’t mean those things shouldn’t be part of a training process.

 

[drop bear]

Good point.

Nobody fights like that, but, nobody does pushups in the middle of a fight, or stretches, or hits a bag. Doesn’t mean those things shouldn’t be part of a training process.

Where bunkai is basically where people do try to find the secret move hidden in pushups.

Crossfit self defence.

 

[marvin8]

Not so much by design, but by necessity. Kata has limitations. Some skills and understanding can only be developed by working against a live opponent. The qualities you listed are to a large degree behavioral and depend on reading and manipulating the opponent's psyche.

No, fighting principles. rhythm, timing, position, strategy and tactics (skills) should be based largely on physics and the relationship between you and the opponent.

I think this is too much subtlety to expect from a kata. While kata may illustrate a bit of these principles it can't really teach how to employ them. Only personal interaction with another can develop them.

Whether it's in kata, shadowboxing or drills, the process of skills should be/are taught and trained before fighting.

 

[isshinryuronin]

No, fighting principles. rhythm, timing, position, strategy and tactics (skills) should be based largely on physics and the relationship between you and the opponent.

This is exactly why solo kata cannot teach all things. It's hard to engage in a relationship when you're by yourself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's hard to engage in a relationship when you're by yourself.

A form can be just partner drills without partner.

So far, we only talk about "form training is not like fighting". What we should talk about is "How to make form training the same as fighting".

If we all put our effort together, we can change that.

 

[Buka]

This is exactly why solo kata cannot teach all things. It's hard to engage in a relationship when you're by yourself.

Hence, opposable thumbs.

 

[Buka]

Where bunkai is basically where people do try to find the secret move hidden in pushups.

Crossfit self defence.

I do not like Tony Blauer at all. Followed him for years, but never again.

 

[marvin8]

This is exactly why solo kata cannot teach all things. It's hard to engage in a relationship when you're by yourself.

Here is my similar process of fighting skills that supposedly are taught in tai chi forms. Note that techniques are not mentioned...

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

I don't necessarily agree that all tai chi tactics and techniques are practical...

 

[isshinryuronin]

Hence, opposable thumbs.

I knew somebody was going to post a reply like this!

 

[skribs]

This is exactly why solo kata cannot teach all things. It's hard to engage in a relationship when you're by yourself.

That's what grappling dummies are for.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here is my similar process of fighting skills that supposedly are taught in tai chi forms. Note that techniques are not mentioned...

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

This is a good process. There can be several versions of the phases of an attack and most all will have some validity. The good versions will include at the least: A set-up, control to allow some way of safely entering, and the attack. Another two or three or four steps can be ID'd as well, depending how specific and detailed you want to be. This progression will flow from one step to another, each step facilitating the next. This puts the trained martial artist way ahead of an attacker that just thinks fighting is firing off punches willy-nilly. (Though to be honest, if this kind of attacker has great speed and ferocity, they can be a challenge. No matter what your skill level is, always bring your 'A' game.

 

[drop bear]

I do not like Tony Blauer at all. Followed him for years, but never again.

Yeah. And the crossfire stuff was a stretch even for him.

He legitimately tried to take cross fit movements and shoe horn them in to self defence

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

I don't necessarily agree that all tai chi tactics and techniques are practical...

I also don't agree that tai chi tactics and techniques are practical because the missing of the leg skills.

If you always sweep your opponent's leading leg when he put weight on, all those Taiji tactics will be meaningless. But Taij people don't want to talk about foot sweep.

 

[Buka]

Yeah. And the crossfire stuff was a stretch even for him.

He legitimately tried to take cross fit movements and shoe horn them in to self defence

When I retired from my cop job in Boston, I was still training a lot of cops, and would be for years. But because I was no longer an active police officer he wouldn’t allow me access to some of their stuff.

I could have just lied, but I didn’t. Ah, well.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Bottom line appears to be that there's too much mystique that is unduly being attributed to kata.

Maybe so.

I don't see this as a bad thing. We can relate this to individual Christians interpreting the Bible in their own way. Is there a "right way" for the Bible to interpreted? I don't know. And I don't think it matters. If the way that an individual Christian interprets it motivates them to do things that are universally considered positive, then what legitimate complaint can anyone have?

I can tell you, for example, that in Shotokan's Bassai Dai (derived from Itosu no Passai, not Matsumura no Passai), some people interpret steps 2 through 5 as merely four blocks. I interpret it as two instances of hyperextending elbows. Is there an official interpretation? I don't know, and I probably only care to the extent that I would personally find the official interpretation to be more useful. What matters is that everyone's own interpretation allows them to go home safe that night.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Shotokan's Bassai Dai (derived from Itosu no Passai, not Matsumura no Passai), some people interpret steps 2 through 5 as merely four blocks. I interpret it as two instances of hyperextending elbows.

Since each two-block set hits the arm on the same side it doesn't look like a joint attack. If it was, the blocks would attack the arm from opposing directions, thus locking the elbow. I see the move as the first block deflecting the punch and the second block continuing the deflection even further to partially turn the opponent around.

But the above bunkai does not include any counter-attack after the blocks to take advantage of the position gained. Most TMA kata series do not end on a block as it leaves the opponent free to attack again. So, it's possible the second outward "block" may actually be a backfist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Since each two-block set hits the arm on the same side

It can be a "switch hands".

- Block with right arm.
- Re-block with left arm (this free your right arm).
- Punch with right arm.