Do u like the idea of age 18 for a black belt?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Generally accurate, with a couple of points to clarify.

First, it's not the limbic system that presents the ability to manage risk, but the executive center (in the prefrontal cortex). The limbic system is more involved in emotional control and evaluation, and is what the executive center balances. We all use the limbic system as the final arbiter of most decisions, but the adult brain is able to temper it with the long-term consequence considerations of the executive center. That's just me nit-picking, though, because your point is valid.

Second, it's not a cut-off point kind of thing, but a graduated scale. At 15, we generally have poor executive control (the reason so many teens, when asked "why did you do that" reply "I don't know"). By 25, we generally have pretty good executive control, with a fairly steady increase between those ages (ages, of course, variable by individual brain development). 18 isn't the optimal place to draw the line if we consider only maturity, but it's better than 15. 18 isn't an optimal place to draw the line if we consider only physical skill, but it's better than 25. I think for those who want a cut-off (and who consider BB to mean more than a starting point), 18 is a reasonable place.

Well, it's the relationship between prefrontal cortex and limbic system. You're correct with what your saying, but the limbic system is not fully developed either, which prevents them from making rational decisions even if they are aware of what the rational decision.

Regarding the 25 thing, if those parts of the brain being developed enough was a requirement for black belt for some reason, most people would probably have it developed enough by the time they are 19-21 where they would pass the requirement. Some people have delays and wouldn't be ready until 23/24, while others on the other end would be ready by 17/18. The issue is, there is no real way to tell where a person is at in that development, if you're only seeing them in the dojo where I assume they are not taking many risky decisions (if they are, that's another problem), so in order for you to know the person fulfills that requirement, outside of examining them in their every day life, you would have to raise it to that 24 year old who is delayed for whatever reason.

 

[FlamingJulian]

Oh yeah well let me tell you... just kidding

There are always exceptions to the rule, Benny, "the Jet" Urquidez got his Black belt at 14, in the 1960s when it was unheard of, and from what I read there were few at the time that did not agree he deserved it. My youngest, if she keeps at it, might be a black belt in Aikido before she is 18 too. If someone deserves it, they deserve it. My biggest issue with many black belts given out these days is that it seems to be based more in time in an art than skill in an art.

There's 3 different types of black belts in my opinion and I'm not going to go into that. But most black belts have earned there belts in some way.


-Julian

 

[FlamingJulian]

Go for it brother. You earned it. Age is but a number. And of course we all know we can get into legal trouble if we kill someone or hurt them badly LOL. As far as showing off, as long as its a trainer blade made of dull metal or made of wood , you can show off all you like....

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-Julian

 

[JR 137]

Don't confuse a minimum requirement with a standard. I think what folks are saying is that it's highly unlikely a 16-year-old would meet their standards of maturity, etc. for a black belt, so they don't normally offer them at that age. They aren't saying every (or even nearly every) adult has the requisite maturity, just that nearly no 16-year-olds do.

As for shodans teaching, again, we're back to the issue of trying to compare shodans between groups. In the mainline of NGA, if you aren't ready to/can't teach, you can't get your shodan. Their shodan is their teaching certification (part of the requirement is a year of supervised student teaching). I've seen folks stall at brown belt because they either weren't interested in teaching or they couldn't complete the requirements (either timewise or by ability).

If I may ask...

If the ability to be an instructor is a shodan requirement, are there any others? What if a person has shown near flawless technique, application, understanding, and maturity, yet doesn't have the desire, patience, nor ability to teach (say, Autism or similar), do they advance in training, yet don't advance in rank? Is there additional material at black belt ranks, or does the rank only (from this perspective) signify a teacher?

I've seen you mention 1st and 2nd dan. Does your ranking go higher? If there are, are these solely teaching ability/achievement based promotions and don't have any physical curriculum attached?

In my system and most I know of, dan ranks have new techniques, strategy, etc. taught at each rank, until a certain dan rank where promotions become for advancing the art in different ways.

 

[WaterGal]

Very true and most places do expect their black belts to teach if not actually be classed as instructors even those places where 3rd Dan or higher is the instructor rank.

That's true, but I'm not a huge fan of that myself. I don't think we should expect that just because someone has trained in martial arts for 3 or 5 or 8 years that they know how to (and want to!) manage a classroom, maintain discipline, implement lesson plans, explain techniques in ways that are effective for students with different learning styles, etc. Different people have different reasons for training and have different skills and personality. For some, teaching may come naturally or they have experience in it, but others will need extensive practice before they can be effective in handling a class or may never be. Some may dislike teaching, or have some kind of disability that is a barrier, or their schedule may be too erratic for them to commit to a class time (think someone who works rotating shifts).

 

[Buka]

Oh man...that hurts.....now I feel old, cantankerous and stuck in my ways....old school...

No, no, bro, if it wasn't for new school, old school would be passé.

 

[Tez3]

That's true, but I'm not a huge fan of that myself. I don't think we should expect that just because someone has trained in martial arts for 3 or 5 or 8 years that they know how to (and want to!) manage a classroom, maintain discipline, implement lesson plans, explain techniques in ways that are effective for students with different learning styles, etc. Different people have different reasons for training and have different skills and personality. For some, teaching may come naturally or they have experience in it, but others will need extensive practice before they can be effective in handling a class or may never be. Some may dislike teaching, or have some kind of disability that is a barrier, or their schedule may be too erratic for them to commit to a class time (think someone who works rotating shifts).

I think martial arts is possibly one of the only activities that expects people to instruct without any training to actually do so. I had to take a course and pass exams to be a riding instructor despite riding for years and years, my daughter had to do courses to be a Cheer coach, football and cricket etc all expect people to do courses and learn how to teach others yet martial arts, in any style, doesn't seem to have coaching or instructing courses and exams just for that. The belt system seems to be enough. However, these courses cover subjects like health and safety, child protection, first aid etc which instructors should understand and be certified in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I may ask...

If the ability to be an instructor is a shodan requirement, are there any others? What if a person has shown near flawless technique, application, understanding, and maturity, yet doesn't have the desire, patience, nor ability to teach (say, Autism or similar), do they advance in training, yet don't advance in rank? Is there additional material at black belt ranks, or does the rank only (from this perspective) signify a teacher?

I've seen you mention 1st and 2nd dan. Does your ranking go higher? If there are, are these solely teaching ability/achievement based promotions and don't have any physical curriculum attached?

In my system and most I know of, dan ranks have new techniques, strategy, etc. taught at each rank, until a certain dan rank where promotions become for advancing the art in different ways.

In mainline NGA (referring to the NGAA curriculum here, as some independent schools have more yudansha ranks), there is only a small amount of curriculum that is held until after shodan (weapons techniques, mostly). There's some additional testing for nidan (those weapons techniques, some jumping kicks, and blending). Beyond that, ranks are technically not technical (in NGAA, they only have 6 yudansha ranks, with 6th being reserved for the head of the association).

To the other part of your question, you are correct. They do not proceed in rank if they cannot teach. I think some instructors will go ahead and convey the remainder of the curriculum at some point, but some won't. I carried over the same concept in Shojin-ryu, except that I held instructor certification for nidan (so deserving folks could get shodan). There's no other additional requirement for nidan. Sandan is just a senior instructor rank (able to create instructors), and we stop there, theoretically.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think martial arts is possibly one of the only activities that expects people to instruct without any training to actually do so. I had to take a course and pass exams to be a riding instructor despite riding for years and years, my daughter had to do courses to be a Cheer coach, football and cricket etc all expect people to do courses and learn how to teach others yet martial arts, in any style, doesn't seem to have coaching or instructing courses and exams just for that. The belt system seems to be enough. However, these courses cover subjects like health and safety, child protection, first aid etc which instructors should understand and be certified in.

This is true in most areas of the MA world, from what I've seen and heard.

One of the things I liked about the NGAA curriculum is that they actually have a period of instructor training, and some additional material (first aid, etc.) required for shodan. I've carried that concept over, and am taking it further. I'm an experienced coprporate-world trainer, and have trained many trainers. I'm carrying some of those same train-the-trainer and AMT concepts into the instructor development program for Shojin-ryu. I've bounced around the idea of offering an instructor training program that would be open to instructors in any martial art. It would be centered around safety, training methodology and adult learning theory (plus juvenile learning, maybe), how to communicate corrections, etc. The idea would be to equip instructors in any MA to teach better and to be more effective with more kinds of students.

I even asked a friend who is an excellent instructor if he'd be interested in working together on doing some open train-the-instructor seminars, but I haven't really had time to put together a real plan for such.

 

[Juany118]

This is true in most areas of the MA world, from what I've seen and heard.

One of the things I liked about the NGAA curriculum is that they actually have a period of instructor training, and some additional material (first aid, etc.) required for shodan. I've carried that concept over, and am taking it further. I'm an experienced coprporate-world trainer, and have trained many trainers. I'm carrying some of those same train-the-trainer and AMT concepts into the instructor development program for Shojin-ryu. I've bounced around the idea of offering an instructor training program that would be open to instructors in any martial art. It would be centered around safety, training methodology and adult learning theory (plus juvenile learning, maybe), how to communicate corrections, etc. The idea would be to equip instructors in any MA to teach better and to be more effective with more kinds of students.

I even asked a friend who is an excellent instructor if he'd be interested in working together on doing some open train-the-instructor seminars, but I haven't really had time to put together a real plan for such.

That's pretty much how it works with the Kali in my school. We currently have three active black belts (another will be testing in November if he gets his ankle right, which I keep telling he won't if he keeps sparing on it. 30 year olds think they are indestructible.) While the blacks are used/treated like assistant instructors you only get the actual title of Guro when you get your red belt and there is a lot more to that than simply skills. You have to write papers and the like. Then if you want the title Mataw-Guro, you could be good enough to beat Antonio Ilustrisimo in his prime and if you don't play the politics of the Association you don't get the title.

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[kuniggety]

This has been discussed to death but the fundamental question here is "what is a black belt?" Well, it's a belt colored black of course. But beyond that it has entirely different connotations based on the system. So people can weigh in their opinion about what age someone should have a black belt, but it doesn't mean anything without defining the definition of that black belt. Most Japan origin systems have a curriculum up to about the third Dan and everything beyond that are political and/or representations of how long you've been promulgating the art. Even this doesn't hold true always. CMA typically don't use a belt system and the ones that decided to adopt one are going to be relatively arbitrary. Is your requirement for a black to be able to do a few forms and self-defense technique performed in an unrealistic manner? Okay, then sure, give the kid a black belt. Do you expect a black belt to have relative mastery of the system and an in depth enough knowledge to be an inheritor/promulgater of the system (BJJ)? Probably not going to happen in a 16 year old.

 

[Tez3]

This is true in most areas of the MA world, from what I've seen and heard.

One of the things I liked about the NGAA curriculum is that they actually have a period of instructor training, and some additional material (first aid, etc.) required for shodan. I've carried that concept over, and am taking it further. I'm an experienced coprporate-world trainer, and have trained many trainers. I'm carrying some of those same train-the-trainer and AMT concepts into the instructor development program for Shojin-ryu. I've bounced around the idea of offering an instructor training program that would be open to instructors in any martial art. It would be centered around safety, training methodology and adult learning theory (plus juvenile learning, maybe), how to communicate corrections, etc. The idea would be to equip instructors in any MA to teach better and to be more effective with more kinds of students.

I even asked a friend who is an excellent instructor if he'd be interested in working together on doing some open train-the-instructor seminars, but I haven't really had time to put together a real plan for such.

That's a brilliant idea! Teaching may come naturally to some but even those 'natural' teachers need to know the other things that are important when teaching and they are things that are found right across the board whatever the subject is. Many are quite simple like making sure you know everyone's names, something you wouldn't think needed to be said but surprisingly it does. Child protection is a big thing here now and most places including martial arts schools are expected if they have anything to do with children, to have a child protection policy in place and also take a basic child protection course. Ours includes, again something simple, making sure you don't face a child if you are tying their belt for them, make sure the child is facing others.
A course such as yours would also be tremendously helpful for people in their 'outside' lives, in the workplace as often companies and employers all too often don't have anything in place for when people are placed in supervisory or other positions where they have to communicate instructions and corrections etc. Most people don't go to seminars or on courses themselves for that sort of things. My employer was the MOD and in the job I did we had course coming out of our eyes, 'equality and diversity' probably being the most unpopular lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's a brilliant idea! Teaching may come naturally to some but even those 'natural' teachers need to know the other things that are important when teaching and they are things that are found right across the board whatever the subject is. Many are quite simple like making sure you know everyone's names, something you wouldn't think needed to be said but surprisingly it does. Child protection is a big thing here now and most places including martial arts schools are expected if they have anything to do with children, to have a child protection policy in place and also take a basic child protection course. Ours includes, again something simple, making sure you don't face a child if you are tying their belt for them, make sure the child is facing others.
A course such as yours would also be tremendously helpful for people in their 'outside' lives, in the workplace as often companies and employers all too often don't have anything in place for when people are placed in supervisory or other positions where they have to communicate instructions and corrections etc. Most people don't go to seminars or on courses themselves for that sort of things. My employer was the MOD and in the job I did we had course coming out of our eyes, 'equality and diversity' probably being the most unpopular lol.

Your latter point is actually something I do on a regular basis. I teach managers how to be managers, rather than technical experts who got stuck managing. There are a lot of skills that they don't have, which are part of the management discipline (which should include leadership). That, along with the instructor prep in the NGAA, lead me to the idea of a MA instructor training course.

 

[Tez3]

Your latter point is actually something I do on a regular basis. I teach managers how to be managers, rather than technical experts who got stuck managing. There are a lot of skills that they don't have, which are part of the management discipline (which should include leadership). That, along with the instructor prep in the NGAA, lead me to the idea of a MA instructor training course.

Sadly too few people are taught how to manage, the only 'employer' that I know of that teaches people how to lead and manage are the Armed Forces which is where I got all my experience ( and in more ways that I'm willing to elaborate on here )

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sadly too few people are taught how to manage, the only 'employer' that I know of that teaches people how to lead and manage are the Armed Forces which is where I got all my experience ( and in more ways that I'm willing to elaborate on here )

I often use the martial arts as an example to point out the idiocy of how most companies promote. Most companies pick someone who's good at a job, assume they'll be good at the next job up, and promote them. I usually see them in a training class a year or so afterwards. I point out that this would be like me saying to a prospective MA student, "You drove your car well to get here. You should make a good black belt. Go fight those three people and if you have too much trouble, I'll teach you what you should do."

 

[Buka]

@Buka i really like your standard of having to defend against a full grown man. Knowing your track record here, I'm pretty confident that that was one of many prerequisites. Not that I'm saying you're wrong by any means, but what about someone who all the training in the world won't get them to be able to defend against a full grown black belt man? Would a 4'10 85 lb woman who trained hard day in and day out, and could easily hold her own against any average sized woman with respectable skill not be worthy of a black belt if she couldn't fully defend against the 5'10 185 lb guys? What about a 4'10 100 lb guy who could go toe to toe with any guy up to 6" taller and 50 lb heavier? I'm most likely wrong in my assumption, but it seems like some people have nearly no chance.

I missed this until just now, sorry, bro.

Some would, most wouldn't. Like I said, it's one of the fail safes, not an absolute. Part of the training to advanced students is the knife. Not defense against, but offense with. (I have no ability to teach unarmed defense against a knife, I know, I suck, but what can I say?)

I know some may say there are legal issues involved with that. Yes, there are. But, let's use that scenario - "4'10 85 lb woman" against a much bigger guy, especially one used as I stated, angry and violent. I'm okay with that, I'm sure she would be too. I do cover a good deal of legal issues concerning self defense. So....it wouldn't be a determining factor for a belt, by itself, if that particular skill were there. (assuming other requirements were also met.)

Same goes for the 4'10 hundred pound guy. I'm trying to remember if I've ever taught a guy that size. Can't remember. But the same applies. I don't grade on size. I can teach any size person to choke any size man out, and teach them how to get that position to do so. All part of the enchilada, as they say.

 

[maryf]

its all dependent on personal preferences of individual

 

[Azulx]

I learned to let go of the belt thing real fast. I have been to two different schools under the same instructor. Belts are a strange thing in our school. I have seen him award full 1st dan to an 8 year old and to an adult 18 years old after only 14 months of training. It's just up to whatever he feels. People ask me about my belt and how I got mine so fast. I just look at them at tell them, "this just holds up my gi top." Honestly I like my red belt better, or blue. It's my favorite color. I care more about improving and learning TKD. Not only learn what my instructor is teaching, but also learn how it is supposed to be taught. Don't worry about the belt, it is just a belt. Worry about the guy whose wearing the belt, he will strike you, the belt won't.

 

[Azulx]

In regards to how I feel about someone under 18 getting a black belt. I see it all the time. My instructor's son received his at 10 , and then his 2nd degree at 12. His daughter at 16. It's fine, a 1st degree black belt isn't impressive. The person wearing it though, that may be a different story. So to me no real age requirement is necessary. You will get your black belt soon, then it will hold your dobok up for years to come. Just keep training hard everyday, and now taht a belt is just a belt. The knowledge is within you not the belt.

 

[Tez3]

The knowledge is within you not the belt.

How much knowledge though do you think a young boy with a year or two's training actually has? Sometimes the indicator of a place that just turns out black belts is giving them to young children. There's many places that advertise you will get a black belt in a year if you train with them, how much knowledge do you think those 'black belts' will have even if they have it in them to be good martial artists they have been cheated out of their knowledge.