Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think there would be two threats to children stranger danger and bullying.

Yeah, I just said that.

For stranger danger avoidance and awareness is key.

I touched on that, as well as discussing escaping the predator before they can get the child away, and particularly before getting put into a vehicle.

The awareness/stranger danger is something that can be learned without a martial art, but which certainly should be a part of any children's self defence class.

For bullying possibly the careful use of cracking heads might be in order.

Might be. Of course one of the benefits of the martial arts is frequently a difference in how the student carries themselves, which makes them less appealing to the bully than they might otherwise be.

I see a lot of anti bullying things being promoted as part of the kids MA classes in my area. I don't honestly know what they're specifically doing, so I cannot comment as to the quality of the material. But it is the sort of thing that should be one of the major focuses of children's self defence, and which is less likely to be touched on in an adult class.

Self defence/self protection needs are different for kids than they are for adults, so the classes should be different. Though this, again, has nothing to do with the topic of black belts and children.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, I just said that.


I touched on that, as well as discussing escaping the predator before they can get the child away, and particularly before getting put into a vehicle.

The awareness/stranger danger is something that can be learned without a martial art, but which certainly should be a part of any children's self defence class.


Might be. Of course one of the benefits of the martial arts is frequently a difference in how the student carries themselves, which makes them less appealing to the bully than they might otherwise be.

I see a lot of anti bullying things being promoted as part of the kids MA classes in my area. I don't honestly know what they're specifically doing, so I cannot comment as to the quality of the material. But it is the sort of thing that should be one of the major focuses of children's self defence, and which is less likely to be touched on in an adult class.

Self defence/self protection needs are different for kids than they are for adults, so the classes should be different. Though this, again, has nothing to do with the topic of black belts and children.

We'll my original point was that there are child pro fighters. So a black belt should not be that much of a stretch.

But then everybody complained.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We'll my original point was that there are child pro fighters. So a black belt should not be that much of a stretch.

But then everybody complained.

Belts are used for competition bracketing in a number of arts. The ATA has five year to seven year old black belt divisions. WTF tournaments are bracketed by belts as well. While I'm not aware of children in the pros, children have been wrestling in tournaments for decades.

But bracketing not withstanding, belts are really about the student's progress and how that progress is tracked in a particular school and/or a particular organization.

And as others here have probably already pointed out, contest fighting is not the same as self defence. In contest fighting, the contestants are as equal as they can reasonably be; same weight, same gender, same belt, etc.

None of what you and I discussed regarding adult predators or bullies has any direct correlation to contest fighting.

You mentioned bullying, saying, "For bullying possibly the careful use of cracking heads might be in order," and I said might be. While the skills in contest fighting might be utilized if things get physical, bullying is largely mental and emotional, using a threat, possibly of violence, but not necessarily, to intimidate the victim.

So is a black belt on a child much of a stretch? Again, depends on the art, organization, and/or the school and what the belt represents in the context of that art, organization, and/or school.

 

[drop bear]

Belts are used for competition bracketing in a number of arts. The ATA has five year to seven year old black belt divisions. WTF tournaments are bracketed by belts as well. While I'm not aware of children in the pros, children have been wrestling in tournaments for decades.

But bracketing not withstanding, belts are really about the student's progress and how that progress is tracked in a particular school and/or a particular organization.

And as others here have probably already pointed out, contest fighting is not the same as self defence. In contest fighting, the contestants are as equal as they can reasonably be; same weight, same gender, same belt, etc.

None of what you and I discussed regarding adult predators or bullies has any direct correlation to contest fighting.

You mentioned bullying, saying, "For bullying possibly the careful use of cracking heads might be in order," and I said might be. While the skills in contest fighting might be utilized if things get physical, bullying is largely mental and emotional, using a threat, possibly of violence, but not necessarily, to intimidate the victim.

So is a black belt on a child much of a stretch? Again, depends on the art, organization, and/or the school and what the belt represents in the context of that art, organization, and/or school.

Contest fighting as an indication they understand the techniques and the concepts behind them. Which is generally the counter argument to a child black belt. Whether or not a child could reasonably mentor an adult in a martial art.


And my point is if they are dedicated enough to be a pro fighter they have the capacity to be a black belt.

All training is of course not the same as self defence.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Contest fighting as an indication they understand the techniques and the concepts behind them.

Or that they don't and they lose a lot.

Which is generally the counter argument to a child black belt.

Actually, it isn't. The general counter argument is that the test for a child is not the same test as for an adult, thus the child should not earn the same rank. The whole understanding issue comes up when people demonstrate that either a child can pass the same test (albeit with sparring partners in their own age range) or that adults receive accommodations too.

Whether or not a child could reasonably mentor an adult in a martial art.

Personally, I consider that to be problematic. While there are always exceptions, as a general rule, children do not have the capacity to mentor adults and adults are resistant to being mentored by children.

And my point is if they are dedicated enough to be a pro fighter they have the capacity to be a black belt.

My shodan grading had an essay requirement. It was unrelated to how well I could fight or my level of dedication.

Not all schools grade by the same standards. Some grade you based on qualities other than just the physical skills, while with others, it's all about physical skills.

So I reiterate, it depends on the school/org/art. Just because a student, be they a child or not, can do well in one area, it does not automatically follow that they'll do well in others.

Of course, this conversation is academic for me. I don't have an issue with children wearing black belts.

All training is of course not the same as self defence.

Agreed.

 

[MJS]

That was to make a point I pretty clearly labeled it.

What I was trying to say is there are always going to be harder people than you. And I imagine you don't expect them to be laughing at you.

I figured that's what you were talking about. And I agree...there's always someone going to be bigger, badder, etc, and that's fine. OTOH, if someone mocks an art that I do, then it is what it is. Whether or not I like it is moot, as I just keep moving on.

 

[MJS]

Hard to say. The replies may have been less indignant.

I still remember saying the same kinds of things to Mangoman when he posted about kids with belts years ago. I thought that I was saying something that needed to be said. Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't, but my tone with him, looking back, generated much more heat than light.

You're correct.

People take offence and have their feathers ruffled by all kinds of things. I'm not saying that we should walk on eggshells and seek never to offend. But at the same time, we all know that there are parents who read/post on this board who have children with dan ranks and who do not have the background to know why you or I might view it as a problem. Let's face it; a parent with a grade school student is probably significantly younger than I am and has no memory of martial arts prior to the Karate kid and the fitness/ninja craze of the eighties, which is arguably when the shift to children really happened in the States.

If our board exists to disseminate knowledge and share information in a friendly, informal fashion, it behooves us to keep in mind who might be reading our posts and whether or not our words are simply making them more defensive and causing them to dig their heels in rather than reach them and educate them.

And I certainly do not hold myself up as a saint in this area; my own past posting history is filled with comments than generate more heat than light.

Can't dispute that. While I really don't like to sugar coat anything or say something as a 'feel good' I do understand that it is possible to still get your point across without being too blunt. Of course, while we do at times, attempt to educate those that are not as experienced, it'd be nice if more dojos were less willing to hand things out. Yes, I know this is asking for a lot, however, some school owners are just as guilty of doing things to make people feel good. But we know this as it's been hashed and rehashed so no sense in repeating.

I phrased it as I did because I think that in many cases, it does hold truth. But I've seen enough exceptions that I'm not willing to generalize regarding kids with black belts.

Ok. For me, I just can't, and probably never will, be able to wrap my head around the fact that a school can promote a young child to the BB level, claim they're on the same level as an adult, and said child be capable of having a full understanding and in depth working knowledge of the material, such as an older BB student. Of course, I'm fine with the Jr. BB ranks, as they're not considered full adult BBs, and in time, will continue to advance their knowledge. People try to justify the BB rank to a kid by saying, "But he/she knows all the material and performs sharp and crisp." Yes, ok, but there's a difference between doing the material and really knowing it.

Again, I phrased my comment as I did because there is truth there as well. And I watched a former sabeom agonize over belting young kids, and finally, he gave in and adjusted his grading standards out of fear of losing students and of confrontation with parents. On the other hand, Puunui made a very strong case for belting kids, and I seriously doubt that fear of parents reactions played any part. And I have met very diligent instructors who firmly believe in black belts for younger students, fear playing no part in their reasoning.

Ok.

We don't wear belts in kendo. And it becomes pretty clear who senior students are to any casual onlooker.

With hapkido students, I only use six belts: white, yellow, green, blue, red, and red/black for kids or black for adults (I don't do stripes; just name at one end and the school at the other). I won't teach joint locking or manipulation in a children's class and I don't have enough students to even consider a separate belting program for children. This is strictly an issue related to joint and bone development in kids.

If I did have a children's self defence program, I might consider doing that, though it would be with the understanding that the grades are for that particular program. Would I have the kids' ranks terminate in a black belt? I'm undecided at this point, but as it is not on my radar for the near future, I don't feel pressed to make a choice in that area.

I guess the main issue I have, is from years of seeing young kids not being capable of grasping the material, yet they are promoted. Personally I'm not fond of a 3yr old training in the first place, and were I to own my own school, I wouldn't take kids that young, despite it being a huge source of income. IMO, when the $ is placed higher than the other things, ie: not watering down, devaluing things, that's just wrong, IMO.

 

[MJS]

Lets face it, many of us do not like the idea of a child black belt but the truth in the matter is most schools are supported by youth programs and if ranking the kids keeps the parents bringing them back then schools will continue to give out the ranks

My current teacher has a kids program and well as older kids who have black belts. Funny though...in the going on 3yrs that I've been there, it's amazing to see the difference in the kids compared to other schools I'm familiar with. I'll have to ask my teacher what's the youngest that he's awarded a BB to.

 

[MJS]

Well, you have to give people hope for the future or you will have one less student.

Agreed!

 

[MJS]

Should the black belt be placed on a pedestal the way it often is in the USA? Perhaps it should be seen as just another belt. I especially don't see why the black belt would be placed on a pedestal if your instructor is from Japan, as mine is.

Because a long time ago, the BB meant something more than what it means today. My teacher is from Japan, and has said to me many times, while chatting after class, that he would not feel right about awarding any rank, especially the BB, if the person didn't deserve it. As ballen said, it's not just the BB, but any rank.

 

[MJS]

I understand. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but hopefully her test is a success next month.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

So, in your opinion, as long as all the standards are met, you see nothing wrong with the age factor? I'm probably going to have to go with what Daniel said in his reply, but let me ask you this. If we go with your theory, then it's very possible for someone to reach a high level black belt, at a young age. If you walked into a school and saw someone who was 20yrs old, but was a 7th or 8th dan, would that be ok with you?

Let's see their skill set and decide if it's valid or not. The proof is on the mat.

I'll agree with you that the proof is on the mat. Like I've said, it's the skill, knowledge, understanding, ability to teach, have the in depth knowledge, etc, that matters more than the stripes. I probably would question the sight of a 20yr old 8th dan. To me, I see an older person, someone in their 50's, 60's, etc, someone who's put in upwards of 30-40yrs of training, not someone who began at 5, got their first dan at 9, and is now an 8th dan at 20.

Then as Daniel said, why have an age restriction for driving? Voting? Drinking? Working? I think you may have just answered my question that I asked above this, but you said a 5th dan before they rent a car. So, am I safe to assume that you would be cool with someone in their early to mid 20's, being a 7th, 8th, 9th dan?

If they have attained the skills to acquire it, yes. Once again, the proof is on the mat.

See my above reply.

My point was simply that in that art, you don't see people, of any age, worrying about rank. Everyone trains, and they earn the rank on the standards the art has. What is the rush? Does it really matter if someone who starts training at 5, gets a BB by the time they're 10 or are they capable of waiting until they're 16?

Worried, no. No real rush through it, however I don't believe that age should be the ultimate predetermining factor as to whether or not a student has acquired the sufficient skills and knowledge to advance in rank.

Ok. My above reply probably covers this too.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok. For me, I just can't, and probably never will, be able to wrap my head around the fact that a school can promote a young child to the BB level, claim they're on the same level as an adult, and said child be capable of having a full understanding and in depth working knowledge of the material, such as an older BB student. Of course, I'm fine with the Jr. BB ranks, as they're not considered full adult BBs, and in time, will continue to advance their knowledge. People try to justify the BB rank to a kid by saying, "But he/she knows all the material and performs sharp and crisp." Yes, ok, but there's a difference between doing the material and really knowing it.

Okay, the top argument against children with black belts that I have seen on boards over the years is that the kid can't complete the test. That is demonstrably false; I've seen kids complete the same test the adults complete, right down to the number of kicks. My girlfriend's nephew went through one of those two day boot camp style tests. It was a challenging test. Equally challenging as the adult test.

So the next argument is that the kids can't perform the moves with power or crispness. That is also demonstrably false. Youtube is chock full of crisp and well performing kids.

So the next argument against kids with black belts is depth, knowledge, and maturity. Surely, no child could possibly be on par with the average adult in these areas. But let's be honest. Really honest: How much depth does the average adult shodan really have? Based on what I've seen, and lets not forget that it is adult black belts who are perpetrating this whole idea of kids with belts in the first place, the average adult doesn't have much, if any more depth of knowledge in these areas than the kids do. And given that kids are at the age when they are most able to learn diverse things, you'd be surprised at how much depth a kid might have.

I've seen a lot of kids with surprising depth of knowledge in areas more intellectually complex than martial arts.

So the last line of reasoning against the idea of children with black belt is that a child cannot beat up an adult. If you really want the same test, then you have to force these tykes to spar grown ups in full contact sparring. Unarmed in bare feet and without his fellow cops or soldiers or radio to call for back up. This is a straw man argument as well. The adults who make this argument are not expected to face similarly impossible odds at their test.

And for some reason, the same people who make these arguments don't seem to have any issue with the awarding of a black belt to an eighty year old who decides to take up a martial art for the first time. If that eighty year old gets through the training and the test, I guarantee that his/her opponents are careful not to go full boar on them due to the much greater risk of serious injury that an eighty year old has.

I've seen first hand morbidly obese, but otherwise capable students, and students with particular health issues given accommodations on their tests as well.

As an aside, comparing karate class to driving a motor vehicle, voting, joining the army, or consuming alcohol is an attempt at creating a false equivalency. The laws that are in place for those things are driven by factors other than simple age. Internationally, the ages of such things are not consistent anyway. And Ballen's eight year old in a Jeep is probably no less qualified to be on the roads than at least half of the people on the road in my area. In fact, she might be better than many. In any case, prior to industrialization, kids were considered adults at a much, much younger age than they are now.

So really, the issue is not that kid can't have the same grade as an adult. The real issue is that the grades are seen by many as being literally handed out to unqualified students in order to turn a profit (see below).

I guess the main issue I have, is from years of seeing young kids not being capable of grasping the material, yet they are promoted.

I cannot stress this enough: This is not a kid issue. This is a grading integrity issue. And the same schools that pass unqualified kids are passing unqualified adults. Who are getting a free pass from the 'no kiddie belt' crowd simply because they're adults.

Really, the devaluing of the grades that people complain about is not because of the age of the recipient but because of the lack of integrity in the grading process which is not related to age of the candidates. Adults will always come across as being more able and more knowledgeable than children simply because other adults are predisposed to assume that they are. But I guarantee you that the same schools that are churning out kiddie black belts who aren't qualified are churning out adult black belts who aren't qualified.

Personally I'm not fond of a 3yr old training in the first place, and were I to own my own school, I wouldn't take kids that young, despite it being a huge source of income. IMO, when the $ is placed higher than the other things, ie: not watering down, devaluing things, that's just wrong, IMO.

On the other hand, students beginning at three is hardly unheard of in Asia. I see nothing wrong with training three year olds, with the caveat that the school needs to have an appropriate program and should be conforming to all of the same standards that anyone else working with kids that young should be conforming to in whatever locale the school is in.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Having said all that in my last post, I want to emphasize that if others feel differently, I respect their opinions in that area. I don't think that people who have set age requirements for grades should suddenly suspend them.

And in spite of my not being opposed to the idea of kids in black belts, it is not an idea that I endorse. I simply don't see the age as the real issue, but instead see a lack of grading integrity as the issue. Kids are a huge market, so there are a lot more of them and they tend to become the focal point of this frustration because of that.

But lets not forget that it is actually not the kids who are at fault here. It is profit savvy adults who have high grades, often above seventh dan, who are the perpetrators of this dynamic.

 

[MJS]

Okay, the top argument against children with black belts that I have seen on boards over the years is that the kid can't complete the test. That is demonstrably false; I've seen kids complete the same test the adults complete, right down to the number of kicks. My girlfriend's nephew went through one of those two day boot camp style tests. It was a challenging test. Equally challenging as the adult test.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the marathon, multi day tests. Oh yes, I've taken part in them, but I don't feel that a 2 day test is necessary, but that's just me. To each their own. What I'm about to say next, is something I said earlier to drop bear, and it'll most likely apply to other parts of your post here. Nothing says that adjustments/modifications can't be made. I used the analogy of a 5'3 woman, trying to strike the face of a 6'3 male. Probably isn't going to happen, and when I've taught techniques to smaller people, male and female alike, I've made adjustments for them. So, do the kids have to test the same way as adults? No. You can adjust the requirements. Of course, still maintain the quality.

So the next argument is that the kids can't perform the moves with power or crispness. That is also demonstrably false. Youtube is chock full of crisp and well performing kids.

You are correct.

So the next argument against kids with black belts is depth, knowledge, and maturity. Surely, no child could possibly be on par with the average adult in these areas. But let's be honest. Really honest: How much depth does the average adult shodan really have? Based on what I've seen, and lets not forget that it is adult black belts who are perpetrating this whole idea of kids with belts in the first place, the average adult doesn't have much, if any more depth of knowledge in these areas than the kids do. And given that kids are at the age when they are most able to learn diverse things, you'd be surprised at how much depth a kid might have.

I've seen a lot of kids with surprising depth of knowledge in areas more intellectually complex than martial arts.

I can agree with that to a point, but I'd also say that a lot comes down to a) the teacher and how well they explain things, making sure they engrain this knowledge to their students, and b) how much the student does on their own. I mean, there comes a time when the student has to start figuring things out on their own. For example: the rank requirements for the Arnis org. that I'm a part of. All the material is laid out clear as day on the website. As long as the student does those required things, they'll move along accordingly. Of course, there're also time in grade standards as well as classes attended. I tested quite a while ago for my Black, and I passed. I asked one of my teachers one day, "So, what is there to learn after black?" He said not much as far as physical techs, kata, etc, go, however, he said that what needs to happen now, is that the student needs to start expanding on what they already know. It's like BJJ. Sure, there're upper level techs, but the bottom line is, a BB in BJJ is doing the same techs a Blue belt in BJJ is, only much better. They've got the deeper understanding.

So the last line of reasoning against the idea of children with black belt is that a child cannot beat up an adult. If you really want the same test, then you have to force these tykes to spar grown ups in full contact sparring. Unarmed in bare feet and without his fellow cops or soldiers or radio to call for back up. This is a straw man argument as well. The adults who make this argument are not expected to face similarly impossible odds at their test.

Well, I don't believe I ever said anything about beating anyone up, so.....

but since you brought it up...if sparring is something that is done at the school, the student should demonstrate their skill accordingly. Kids spar other kids on tests at my dojo and adults other adults. Everyone does fine. Of course, if you're testing for a higher rank, it's pretty much expected that you fight accordingly.

And for some reason, the same people who make these arguments don't seem to have any issue with the awarding of a black belt to an eighty year old who decides to take up a martial art for the first time. If that eighty year old gets through the training and the test, I guarantee that his/her opponents are careful not to go full boar on them due to the much greater risk of serious injury that an eighty year old has.

See my above comments regarding adjusting. Furthermore, I don't believe I ever said anything about that. This, IMO, is probably along the lines of giving someone an 'honorary award.'

I've seen first hand morbidly obese, but otherwise capable students, and students with particular health issues given accommodations on their tests as well.

Ditto.

As an aside, comparing karate class to driving a motor vehicle, voting, joining the army, or consuming alcohol is an attempt at creating a false equivalency. The laws that are in place for those things are driven by factors other than simple age. Internationally, the ages of such things are not consistent anyway. And Ballen's eight year old in a Jeep is probably no less qualified to be on the roads than at least half of the people on the road in my area. In fact, she might be better than many. In any case, prior to industrialization, kids were considered adults at a much, much younger age than they are now.

I wasn't the one who mentioned that initially. But since you mention it..I take it you have no huge issues with a kid BB?

So really, the issue is not that kid can't have the same grade as an adult. The real issue is that the grades are seen by many as being literally handed out to unqualified students in order to turn a profit (see below).

That's part of it, but IMO, it probably happens more than we wish to admit.

I cannot stress this enough: This is not a kid issue. This is a grading integrity issue. And the same schools that pass unqualified kids are passing unqualified adults. Who are getting a free pass from the 'no kiddie belt' crowd simply because they're adults.

Really, the devaluing of the grades that people complain about is not because of the age of the recipient but because of the lack of integrity in the grading process which is not related to age of the candidates. Adults will always come across as being more able and more knowledgeable than children simply because other adults are predisposed to assume that they are. But I guarantee you that the same schools that are churning out kiddie black belts who aren't qualified are churning out adult black belts who aren't qualified.

Ok.

On the other hand, students beginning at three is hardly unheard of in Asia. I see nothing wrong with training three year olds, with the caveat that the school needs to have an appropriate program and should be conforming to all of the same standards that anyone else working with kids that young should be conforming to in whatever locale the school is in.

You're right. Of course, the entire mentality is different.

 

[MJS]

Having said all that in my last post, I want to emphasize that if others feel differently, I respect their opinions in that area. I don't think that people who have set age requirements for grades should suddenly suspend them.

And in spite of my not being opposed to the idea of kids in black belts, it is not an idea that I endorse. I simply don't see the age as the real issue, but instead see a lack of grading integrity as the issue. Kids are a huge market, so there are a lot more of them and they tend to become the focal point of this frustration because of that.

But lets not forget that it is actually not the kids who are at fault here. It is profit savvy adults who have high grades, often above seventh dan, who are the perpetrators of this dynamic.

So, if you were able to change things, what would you propose? Am I safe to assume that you're somewhat ok with young kids having BB's, but an overhaul of the grading standards? If that is the case, what would the standards be for a youth? An adult?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, I'm not a fan of the marathon, multi day tests. Oh yes, I've taken part in them, but I don't feel that a 2 day test is necessary, but that's just me.

I'm not a fan of such tests either.

I can agree with that to a point, but I'd also say that a lot comes down to a) the teacher and how well they explain things, making sure they engrain this knowledge to their students, and b) how much the student does on their own. I mean, there comes a time when the student has to start figuring things out on their own. For example: the rank requirements for the Arnis org. that I'm a part of. All the material is laid out clear as day on the website. As long as the student does those required things, they'll move along accordingly. Of course, there're also time in grade standards as well as classes attended. I tested quite a while ago for my Black, and I passed. I asked one of my teachers one day, "So, what is there to learn after black?" He said not much as far as physical techs, kata, etc, go, however, he said that what needs to happen now, is that the student needs to start expanding on what they already know. It's like BJJ. Sure, there're upper level techs, but the bottom line is, a BB in BJJ is doing the same techs a Blue belt in BJJ is, only much better. They've got the deeper understanding.

Agreed.

Well, I don't believe I ever said anything about beating anyone up, so.....

Furthermore, I don't believe I ever said anything about that.

You did not. I was referencing the arguments that I've seen on the boards, both MT and in other places, over the years.

I wasn't the one who mentioned that initially. But since you mention it..I take it you have no huge issues with a kid BB?

It's not what I would do, but no I don't. So long as there is integrity in grading.

Just as I don't believe in elevating the black belt to unrealistic levels, I also don't believe that the standards for attaining one should be dumbed down either. So a child earns a black belt. That's one thing. However, swaths of grade school aged kids regularly being promoted to shodan is a red flag to me.

That's part of it, but IMO, it probably happens more than we wish to admit.

I think that it probably happens a lot.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So, if you were able to change things, what would you propose?

I don't actually look to change anything. I do what I do the way that I do it because I don't feel that it would be honest to do otherwise. For starters, I don't have any students younger than about fourteen. I don't charge for grading either.

Am I safe to assume that you're somewhat ok with young kids having BB's, but an overhaul of the grading standards?

I'd say that that is fairly accurate.

If that is the case, what would the standards be for a youth? An adult?

The standard to me is that the student show proficiency in what they have learned and that they understand what they have learned.

A shodan/ildan/equivalent candidate should be able to receive (uke/uchidachi/motodachi/whatever your art's term is) for junior students and should be able to answer questions posed to them by their junior partner about the nature of the technique(s) being practiced.

The candidate should be consistent in displaying good etiquette in class and set an example to juniors.

In kata, they should not only be able to perform the technical portions of the kata, but perform them in the proper way. In other words, with proper pacing, breathing, zanshin, etc.

Finally, in an art with free sparring, they should show in their bout that they can maintain composure, maintain mental strength, and utilize the techniques and strategies that they have learned in an unscripted setting.

If a child can meet those standards, then I am okay with a child earning the grade. I don't see the standard as being different based on age. The difference is in how the class is structured.

Different art will have different needs in this regard. If I am teaching hapkido, I will not put a black belt on a child. Not because a child is incapable of learning/understanding the techniques, but because I will not teach joint locks/manipulation to children for safety reasons. Because the child has not learned the material, I cannot give him/her a test on the material. I generally don't think that that kind of thing should be taught to kids until they're in their early to mid teens.

That issue is not present in Kukkiwon taekwondo, however, so the need is different.

Kids classes need to be structured for kids. Most importantly, kids should not be hurried.

Finally, I don't feel that the black belt should be held up as more or diminished to less than what it is in a particular art. In KKW/WTF TKD, an ildan is literally a beginning grade. Not a rank beginner, but a beginner in the art. In BJJ, it is a very different grade. The KKW ildan should not be elevated to represent what it does in a BJJ school, and a BJJ shodan should not be diminished to represent what it does in a KKW TKD school.

So be honest about the student's progress, be clear about what your school's standards are, and be true to what your art's standards are. And do not connect grading with money (no, I am not saying never to charge for a grading, even though I personally do not).

 

[MJS]

It's not what I would do, but no I don't. So long as there is integrity in grading.

Ok. I suppose I could go along with that.

Just as I don't believe in elevating the black belt to unrealistic levels, I also don't believe that the standards for attaining one should be dumbed down either. So a child earns a black belt. That's one thing. However, swaths of grade school aged kids regularly being promoted to shodan is a red flag to me.

Yet I'm sure we could walk into many schools and see swaths of grade school black belts. Now, if these same kids were tested using the method you described, ie: integrity, etc, would that be ok?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok. I suppose I could go along with that.




Yet I'm sure we could walk into many schools and see swaths of grade school black belts. Now, if these same kids were tested using the method you described, ie: integrity, etc, would that be ok?

Sure. Since I'm not going to go watch their tests to see how legit they are, I suppose it doesn't really matter. Even my comment about it being a red flag is unimportant unless I'm shopping for a school. If I'm not, then it isn't.

In any case, every instructor and school owner has to live with the choices they make. I know what my grading policy is and I can live with it. I make no money from it (it actually costs me money to promote a student to shodan) and don't grade in such a way as to contradict my own standards.

 

[MJS]

I don't actually look to change anything. I do what I do the way that I do it because I don't feel that it would be honest to do otherwise. For starters, I don't have any students younger than about fourteen. I don't charge for grading either.

Sounds fair to me. Personally, if I were to have my own school, I'd probably set a limit of 14 as well.

I'd say that that is fairly accurate.

ok.

The standard to me is that the student show proficiency in what they have learned and that they understand what they have learned.

A shodan/ildan/equivalent candidate should be able to receive (uke/uchidachi/motodachi/whatever your art's term is) for junior students and should be able to answer questions posed to them by their junior partner about the nature of the technique(s) being practiced.

The candidate should be consistent in displaying good etiquette in class and set an example to juniors.

In kata, they should not only be able to perform the technical portions of the kata, but perform them in the proper way. In other words, with proper pacing, breathing, zanshin, etc.

Finally, in an art with free sparring, they should show in their bout that they can maintain composure, maintain mental strength, and utilize the techniques and strategies that they have learned in an unscripted setting.

If a child can meet those standards, then I am okay with a child earning the grade. I don't see the standard as being different based on age. The difference is in how the class is structured.

Different art will have different needs in this regard. If I am teaching hapkido, I will not put a black belt on a child. Not because a child is incapable of learning/understanding the techniques, but because I will not teach joint locks/manipulation to children for safety reasons. Because the child has not learned the material, I cannot give him/her a test on the material. I generally don't think that that kind of thing should be taught to kids until they're in their early to mid teens.

That issue is not present in Kukkiwon taekwondo, however, so the need is different.

Kids classes need to be structured for kids. Most importantly, kids should not be hurried.

Finally, I don't feel that the black belt should be held up as more or diminished to less than what it is in a particular art. In KKW/WTF TKD, an ildan is literally a beginning grade. Not a rank beginner, but a beginner in the art. In BJJ, it is a very different grade. The KKW ildan should not be elevated to represent what it does in a BJJ school, and a BJJ shodan should not be diminished to represent what it does in a KKW TKD school.

So be honest about the student's progress, be clear about what your school's standards are, and be true to what your art's standards are. And do not connect grading with money (no, I am not saying never to charge for a grading, even though I personally do not).

All sounds fair to me. Someone said earlier, my apologies for not recalling who, maybe tshadowchaser, said that kid/youth black belts are pretty much here to stay, like or not. So, that said, I would probably be more in favor of it, if the things that you mentioned in your posts, were actually used. This isn't to say that some school who have kid BB's, don't already have solid standards in place, but it would be nice to see structure. Yeah, I know, it's asking for a lot..lol.