Do u like the idea of age 18 for a black belt?

[Kickboxer101]

Yep I like the idea otherwise you get a bunch of kids not even in puberty as black belts and it's not just because you weren't born in 1998 but you haven't been training all your life have you fact is you just won't have as many years as some people and you have to deal with difficult stuff which isn't easy for people of any age let alone a 16 year old. I mean you have to be a certain age to get married, vote, drive, drink alcohol so you should be a certain age to be able to teach people how to fight and potentially hurt people. Also you'll need the maturity to understand and teach when not to fight

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here's a perspective that I have as someone who trains in a system that doesn't use belts. The way a person sees the world at 30 is not the same way that they saw the world at 16. Martial Arts is the same way. Your perception of your skills and understanding of your system at 30 is not going to be the same as the understanding that you have now. This isn't a put down to you, it's life. If things go well and you continue to train then you'll be better and more skilled in your Martial Arts at age 30 than you are at age 16. When that happens you'll view your black belt in a different light. You may even question why were you allowed to have a black belt at the age of 16 when you are clearly more skilled at the age of 25 than you were at 16

I know that at the age of 44, I can easily beat the 20 year version of me and I thought I was tough at 20.

Well said. I ache every morning now, but the 30-year-old version of me (probably my physical prime) wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[FlamingJulian]

Here's the thing... you do all this under the direct supervision of a qualified adult instructor. That would fit in perfectly with the KKW standards.
In our system, I expect to be able to point to any random 1st Dan, say "take over", go to Cozumel for a couple weeks and come back knowing that the system has been taught properly in my absence.

In the KKW, 4th Dan is the first "instructor" grade. In ours, it's 1st Dan.

And that is a large part of why you probably wouldn't be testing for 1st Dan at this point.

I couldn't agree more. My Master literally does the same thing and gives some 1st Dans access to the Dojang when he's busy.


-Julian

 

[oftheherd1]

In my class I lead the class all the time and teach people twice my age and deal with little kids who act like they don't want to be there and I handle it well. I've taught disabled kids so I understand ur point but do you get mine? I've done everything on the curriculum and have done it well. My point isn't that all kids my age can do the same, my point is that if you can do it you should be able to get the belt regardless of your age.


-Julian

When I was a senior in high school, the discussion came up in one of my classes about lowering the age of maturity from 21 to 18. I still wasn't 18 myself, but considering myself pretty mature, I couldn't see why not. After all, I could be drafted and go fight and maybe die for my country. And I was mature. And since then there has been a push in some places to make it legal for 16 year olds to vote. Would you agree with that?

FWIW - I am no longer a sub-18 year old senior in high school. As I said, I thought myself mature. I still think in some ways I was, a little bit. But here is the first problem: how do you define mature? Riddle me that.

Do you refrain from smoking or drinking? Or are those activities a display of your maturity?

Do you give truly sage advice about all life's problems when asked? Do you even understand about all of life's problems? Can you see the need and then give truly sage advice without having been asked?

Without going on and on, let me just tell you that I was not as mature as I thought I was, in fact not very mature at all. Not even sure how mature I am now.

Just saying.

 

[oftheherd1]

Here's the thing... you do all this under the direct supervision of a qualified adult instructor. That would fit in perfectly with the KKW standards.
In our system, I expect to be able to point to any random 1st Dan, say "take over", go to Cozumel for a couple weeks and come back knowing that the system has been taught properly in my absence.

In the KKW, 4th Dan is the first "instructor" grade. In ours, it's 1st Dan.

And that is a large part of why you probably wouldn't be testing for 1st Dan at this point.

I don't know at what level Mr. Rhee might have turned over the teaching without his being there, but I suspect at least 1st Dan. But then he didn't have anything higher than a 1st Dan. However from at least blue belt, any of those who showed the requisite knowledge could teach lower belts, in fact, would be required to from time to time. But Mr. Rhee would have been there overseeing it all, as would our one black belt.

In the Hapkido I studied, 4th Dan was the lowest one was supposed to teach, and that was usually from their own school, because in our Kwan at least, one had to be a 4th Dan to even claim a school. But GM Yi did allow some very gifted and available 2nd and 3rd to teach directly under him and with his permission, and often presence. 4th Degree was where you could first call yourself a Master. FWIW

Because as you pointed out, all schools get to set their own rules, and assign their own values to any level of belt.

 

[Paul_D]

I have never personally had a problem with people under 18 being black belts. Black belt belt does not mean (generally) that you are advanced, it usually only means that you can perform the basics adequately, which children are perfectly capable of doing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have never personally had a problem with people under 18 being black belts. Black belt belt does not mean (generally) that you are advanced, it usually only means that you can perform the basics adequately, which children are perfectly capable of doing.

Yep. We are back to the difference in how BB is used in different systems. In a school/association where that's what the BB indicates, then give it at whatever point a student meets that definition.

 

[FlamingJulian]

I have never personally had a problem with people under 18 being black belts. Black belt belt does not mean (generally) that you are advanced, it usually only means that you can perform the basics adequately, which children are perfectly capable of doing.

Yep! I agree. Thanks for posting


-Julian

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have never personally had a problem with people under 18 being black belts. Black belt belt does not mean (generally) that you are advanced, it usually only means that you can perform the basics adequately, which children are perfectly capable of doing.

Oh, agreed. If your system considers a 1st Dan a beginner who can handle doing the basics, then give them the belt. Just bear in mind that not all systems see it that way.

 

[Paul_D]

Oh, agreed. If your system considers a 1st Dan a beginner who can handle doing the basics, then give them the belt. Just bear in mind that not all systems see it that way.

Of course yes, I was generalising.

 

[Buka]

Yes - and no, not always.

Thoughts.....On what, your situation? The only thoughts I have are - good for you, go get it, kid. Wishing you the best of luck, should you pass, wear it well, represent it well.

But you mean what thoughts I have concerning the thread title?

Let me save you some time. I am an opinionated old bastard. Have been since I was a young fool. (but my thinking on certain subjects has not changed, not one little bit)

I don't think people should be given driver's licenses until they're eighteen. I don't believe people should be allowed to vote until they're 25 years old - and I've thought THAT since I was 21. I don't think teenagers should be allowed to have and raise children. (The physical ability to F should not translate to probably the most important responsibility in the world, raising babies)

As for the belt thing. I base my opinion on my own experiences and information. I believe that is the natural order of things among all people. What else should I base it on? What does anyone base any opinion on?

But Dirty Dog said it all, Rank only has meaning within the system that awards it.
So, again, good for you, bro.

With me, there were a lot of requirements to make Black Belt. I'm, doing the promoting, so I make the requirements (can't really argue that) But one of my fails safes was - male or female, you had to be able to defend yourself against a large, angry, out of control, violent man. And who would determine that? I would. I consider myself quite qualified to make that judgement, thank you. I know a lot of those people, there were many around our particular world, and I was a cop. In our dojo there were a lot of adult, hard fighting full contact black belts. Throwing someone to the wolves was an easy thing.( But we never threw puppies, honest)

But, see, here's the thing. Twice in my career I promoted someone to black belt at the age of sixteen. Never in my life did I believe that would ever happen, could ever happen. But it did.

On the first one. This kid Brian used to compete in tournaments. He was a rolly polly kid, in great shape, just had that natural round body type. His skin was so white he was almost opaque, blond hair, blond eyebrows, sweet face. Looked like a cupcake, but didn't train that way, not at all. He reached the age, I don't remember, maybe twelve or thirteen, where his age moved him up to the next tournament division - where, of course, he would be the youngest in the division.

So...he comes to me with a piece of paper. It was a design that he wanted to put on the back of his gi for competition in this next division. It was a white flower, with the words "The Awesome Blossom from Boston."

I look at him, "Are you out of your fricken' mind? First of all, NO, absolutely not. Second of all, what the hells is this? They'd try to kill you"

He says, "I know. That's the point. I want them to come at me hard and fast. If they do, I think I can beat all of them."
We fought a lot of tournaments in the inner city. I'm picturing the older black kids from the projects going after this little lamb with the stupid gi top on. He says, "I know what you're thinking. But I'm a counter fighter, I want them coming to me hard and fast." And he was, a really good counter fighter.

So I said, "Okay, it's your funeral. (I'd like to point out, his mom, who looked just like him, was all for it)

Son of a ***** if he didn't win just about every tournament he fought in. They came at him like banshees. He picked them off like a video game. After that first year, going to bigger and bigger tournaments, him still winning, they stopped rushing him. They stalked him. And he still won.
And I thought, "Hmm."

At fourteen, he started full contact training in the dojo, kickboxing and boxing with the men. Real banging. He didn't like tournaments anymore, he liked combinations, especially counters. Again, I said, "Hmmm".

After a year or so, I told the guys, "put some pressure on him, beat his ***" So they did. After a couple weeks I asked him, "How's the sparring going? I'll never forgot what he told me, "when they go really hard, they're timing is different, but I'm getting it." Again, I thought, "hmm."

By the time he was sixteen he was banging with the best of them. Still got his butt kicked, but dropped as many as dropped him. I tested him that year, with the intention of flunking him. I mean, I was pretty damn sure I was going to flunk him. He passed with flying colors.

So - that's why my answer is yes and no, not always. But I just have to look to the title of the thread - Do u like the idea of. Yes, I know what it means. So does everyone else. But I'll say no because of that u.
Again, I'm an opinionated old bastard, who was also and English major. Who doesn't know squat, but who doesn't care.

As for teaching, maybe ten percent of people I promoted to black were ever allowed to teach. I never saw the correlation between a belt color and the ability to teach. I honestly do not understand that.

But best of luck, bro. (honestly) Go get um.

 

[Phobius]

Just remember, belt or no belt. Noone takes the skill away from you but yourself.

 

[FlamingJulian]

Yes - and no, not always.

Thoughts.....On what, your situation? The only thoughts I have are - good for you, go get it, kid. Wishing you the best of luck, should you pass, wear it well, represent it well.

But you mean what thoughts I have concerning the thread title?

Let me save you some time. I am an opinionated old bastard. Have been since I was a young fool. (but my thinking on certain subjects has not changed, not one little bit)

I don't think people should be given driver's licenses until they're eighteen. I don't believe people should be allowed to vote until they're 25 years old - and I've thought THAT since I was 21. I don't think teenagers should be allowed to have and raise children. (The physical ability to F should not translate to probably the most important responsibility in the world, raising babies)

As for the belt thing. I base my opinion on my own experiences and information. I believe that is the natural order of things among all people. What else should I base it on? What does anyone base any opinion on?

But Dirty Dog said it all, Rank only has meaning within the system that awards it.
So, again, good for you, bro.

With me, there were a lot of requirements to make Black Belt. I'm, doing the promoting, so I make the requirements (can't really argue that) But one of my fails safes was - male or female, you had to be able to defend yourself against a large, angry, out of control, violent man. And who would determine that? I would. I consider myself quite qualified to make that judgement, thank you. I know a lot of those people, there were many around our particular world, and I was a cop. In our dojo there were a lot of adult, hard fighting full contact black belts. Throwing someone to the wolves was an easy thing.( But we never threw puppies, honest)

But, see, here's the thing. Twice in my career I promoted someone to black belt at the age of sixteen. Never in my life did I believe that would ever happen, could ever happen. But it did.

On the first one. This kid Brian used to compete in tournaments. He was a rolly polly kid, in great shape, just had that natural round body type. His skin was so white he was almost opaque, blond hair, blond eyebrows, sweet face. Looked like a cupcake, but didn't train that way, not at all. He reached the age, I don't remember, maybe twelve or thirteen, where his age moved him up to the next tournament division - where, of course, he would be the youngest in the division.

So...he comes to me with a piece of paper. It was a design that he wanted to put on the back of his gi for competition in this next division. It was a white flower, with the words "The Awesome Blossom from Boston."

I look at him, "Are you out of your fricken' mind? First of all, NO, absolutely not. Second of all, what the hells is this? They'd try to kill you"

He says, "I know. That's the point. I want them to come at me hard and fast. If they do, I think I can beat all of them."
We fought a lot of tournaments in the inner city. I'm picturing the older black kids from the projects going after this little lamb with the stupid gi top on. He says, "I know what you're thinking. But I'm a counter fighter, I want them coming to me hard and fast." And he was, a really good counter fighter.

So I said, "Okay, it's your funeral. (I'd like to point out, his mom, who looked just like him, was all for it)

Son of a ***** if he didn't win just about every tournament he fought in. They came at him like banshees. He picked them off like a video game. After that first year, going to bigger and bigger tournaments, him still winning, they stopped rushing him. They stalked him. And he still won.
And I thought, "Hmm."

At fourteen, he started full contact training in the dojo, kickboxing and boxing with the men. Real banging. He didn't like tournaments anymore, he liked combinations, especially counters. Again, I said, "Hmmm".

After a year or so, I told the guys, "put some pressure on him, beat his ***" So they did. After a couple weeks I asked him, "How's the sparring going? I'll never forgot what he told me, "when they go really hard, they're timing is different, but I'm getting it." Again, I thought, "hmm."

By the time he was sixteen he was banging with the best of them. Still got his butt kicked, but dropped as many as dropped him. I tested him that year, with the intention of flunking him. I mean, I was pretty damn sure I was going to flunk him. He passed with flying colors.

So - that's why my answer is yes and no, not always. But I just have to look to the title of the thread - Do u like the idea of. Yes, I know what it means. So does everyone else. But I'll say no because of that u.
Again, I'm an opinionated old bastard, who was also and English major. Who doesn't know squat, but who doesn't care.

As for teaching, maybe ten percent of people I promoted to black were ever allowed to teach. I never saw the correlation between a belt color and the ability to teach. I honestly do not understand that.

But best of luck, bro. (honestly) Go get um.

Thanks for the good luck. Also thanks for posting. Really an interesting story you had. Guess your a the pro! Haha. Thanks!


-Julian

 

[Steve]

As for the belt thing. I base my opinion on my own experiences and information. I believe that is the natural order of things among all people. What else should I base it on? What does anyone base any opinion on?

But Dirty Dog said it all, Rank only has meaning within the system that awards it.
So, again, good for you, bro.

I like your post, Buka. Disagree a bit with this piece here. Belts are a sales mechanism. Black belt, in particular. It means something inside the system, sure. It's calibrated to that system's testing structure in some way.

However, it ALSO means something to the lay person considering training in that school (or often, considering signing up their child for lessons). "Black Belt" is an overt indication of proficiency and to the lay person it means mastery. Systems can deviate from this, and usually do. However, it is done with intention, and that intention, I believe, usually involves money.

The carrot dangled in front of students is the black belt. And once they achieve that, the value of the black belt is diminished by the system to keep that person paying dues.

There is a psychology to video game design that takes advantage of this very same phenomenon. You give the person a goal. They perform tasks to get enough loot to buy the equipment to achieve the goal, only to find that once they do, that goal was meaningless. There is a new goal, and new fees, which require more loot, which leads to a revelation and a new goal... and more fees.

I think the most honest way to do things is to have junior or juvenile ranks, and a completely different set of senior or adult ranks. And then, when a person gets to a certain age, there needs to be a way to step from one ranking system to the other.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I like your post, Buka. Disagree a bit with this piece here. Belts are a sales mechanism. Black belt, in particular. It means something inside the system, sure. It's calibrated to that system's testing structure in some way.

However, it ALSO means something to the lay person considering training in that school (or often, considering signing up their child for lessons). "Black Belt" is an overt indication of proficiency and to the lay person it means mastery. Systems can deviate from this, and usually do. However, it is done with intention, and that intention, I believe, usually involves money.

The carrot dangled in front of students is the black belt. And once they achieve that, the value of the black belt is diminished by the system to keep that person paying dues.

There is a psychology to video game design that takes advantage of this very same phenomenon. You give the person a goal. They perform tasks to get enough loot to buy the equipment to achieve the goal, only to find that once they do, that goal was meaningless. There is a new goal, and new fees, which require more loot, which leads to a revelation and a new goal... and more fees.

I think the most honest way to do things is to have junior or juvenile ranks, and a completely different set of senior or adult ranks. And then, when a person gets to a certain age, there needs to be a way to step from one ranking system to the other.

I don't disagree with what you've said, mostly, in general... but life isn't about generalities.
While belts and money may be a prime motivating factor for many (I'll even grant most) schools and people, there are certainly a large number of non-commercial people and places. I teach at a YMCA program. I get paid zero, zilch, nada, bupkis. Yes, we have belts, because it's a TKD program and it's traditional.
However, we most certainly do not diminish the belt after they earn it. If anything, it would be more accurate to say we diminish the belt from day 1.
Want to sign your kid up? Great. We are completely open about how rank works in the school, and what you can (and cannot) expect.
The belt is used to provide certain structure to the program, which is useful when you teach kids. But it is always stressed that the belt is NOT the goal.

While the lay person may well assume that black belt = expert, that doesn't really matter (unless the school/teacher is dishonest). Lay people have LOTS of gross misunderstandings about how things are. Look at all the people who think it's possible to find "a cure for cancer" (which is patently ridiculous to anyone with any physiology training). Look at all the anti-vaxers. Look at the flat earth people. Look at all the conspiracy theorists who think the govt is "hiding" a design for a carburetor that gets 200MPG. People make assumptions based on incorrect or inaccurate information. That doesn't change the reality.

 

[Steve]

I don't disagree with what you've said, mostly, in general... but life isn't about generalities.
While belts and money may be a prime motivating factor for many (I'll even grant most) schools and people, there are certainly a large number of non-commercial people and places. I teach at a YMCA program. I get paid zero, zilch, nada, bupkis. Yes, we have belts, because it's a TKD program and it's traditional.
However, we most certainly do not diminish the belt after they earn it. If anything, it would be more accurate to say we diminish the belt from day 1.
Want to sign your kid up? Great. We are completely open about how rank works in the school, and what you can (and cannot) expect.
The belt is used to provide certain structure to the program, which is useful when you teach kids. But it is always stressed that the belt is NOT the goal.

While the lay person may well assume that black belt = expert, that doesn't really matter (unless the school/teacher is dishonest). Lay people have LOTS of gross misunderstandings about how things are. Look at all the people who think it's possible to find "a cure for cancer" (which is patently ridiculous to anyone with any physiology training). Look at all the anti-vaxers. Look at the flat earth people. Look at all the conspiracy theorists who think the govt is "hiding" a design for a carburetor that gets 200MPG. People make assumptions based on incorrect or inaccurate information. That doesn't change the reality.

Do you have a stake in promoting the courses you teach? What I mean is, if you had no students, would you continue to have a program at the YMCA? If so, you have a vested interest in selling the style, even if your specific motivation is other than money.

People who aren't selling something tend not to be worried so much about belts.

Also, are you equating a person who believes black belts are experts to a flat earther? I don't believe the two are at all alike. One is a member of a small and eccentric group while the other is a member of "everyone who doesn't train in martial arts, and most who do."

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do you have a stake in promoting the courses you teach? What I mean is, if you had no students, would you continue to have a program at the YMCA? If so, you have a vested interest in selling the style, even if your specific motivation is other than money.

Depends on what you mean by promote. We don't advertise. We don't seek out students. We basically just go to the Y and train.

People who aren't selling something tend not to be worried so much about belts.

Ummm.... that's sort of the point I'm making. We HAVE belts. We don't worry about them. And we do our damnedest to make sure none of the students do, either.

Also, are you equating a person who believes black belts are experts to a flat earther? I don't believe the two are at all alike. One is a member of a small and eccentric group while the other is a member of "everyone who doesn't train in martial arts, and most who do."

One group is certainly larger than the other. The comparison is between groups who are making assumptions and forming beliefs based on ignorance (willful or otherwise).

 

[Steve]

Depends on what you mean by promote. We don't advertise. We don't seek out students. We basically just go to the Y and train.



Ummm.... that's sort of the point I'm making. We HAVE belts. We don't worry about them. And we do our damnedest to make sure none of the students do, either.



One group is certainly larger than the other. The comparison is between groups who are making assumptions and forming beliefs based on ignorance (willful or otherwise).

Alright. I'm sorry I allowed you to bait me into a discussion about your school. It has nothing to do with my post or my points. You're a clever guy, but I'm catching on to your tricks.

I will try to bring this back to the points I was trying to make. I believe it's a good idea to distinguish between juvenile ranks and adult ranks. It is more honest in that it removes any direct correlation between the two ranking structures.

And my opinion that, in general, belts are a sales mechanism. The exception for this is when there is a competitive element to the style which requires some distinction for equity's sake.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Alright. I'm sorry I allowed you to bait me into a discussion about your school. It has nothing to do with my post or my points. You're a clever guy, but I'm catching on to your tricks.

I will try to bring this back to the points I was trying to make. I believe it's a good idea to distinguish between juvenile ranks and adult ranks. It is more honest in that it removes any direct correlation between the two ranking structures.

And my opinion that, in general, belts are a sales mechanism. The exception for this is when there is a competitive element to the style which requires some distinction for equity's sake.

It's really not baiting, nor is there any trickery. I am merely pointing out a viewpoint and attitude that differs from your stated belief. I even stated up front that I think this viewpoint or attitude is likely in the minority.

 

[Buka]

I like your post, Buka. Disagree a bit with this piece here. Belts are a sales mechanism. Black belt, in particular. It means something inside the system, sure. It's calibrated to that system's testing structure in some way.

However, it ALSO means something to the lay person considering training in that school (or often, considering signing up their child for lessons). "Black Belt" is an overt indication of proficiency and to the lay person it means mastery. Systems can deviate from this, and usually do. However, it is done with intention, and that intention, I believe, usually involves money.

The carrot dangled in front of students is the black belt. And once they achieve that, the value of the black belt is diminished by the system to keep that person paying dues.

There is a psychology to video game design that takes advantage of this very same phenomenon. You give the person a goal. They perform tasks to get enough loot to buy the equipment to achieve the goal, only to find that once they do, that goal was meaningless. There is a new goal, and new fees, which require more loot, which leads to a revelation and a new goal... and more fees.

I think the most honest way to do things is to have junior or juvenile ranks, and a completely different set of senior or adult ranks. And then, when a person gets to a certain age, there needs to be a way to step from one ranking system to the other.

I don't think I could agree with you more, Steve. Seems spot on to me.

It didn't really apply to us, what we were doing. I never charged a testing fee. Charged the four bucks for the belt for a while, but dropped that after a couple years. I figured they had paid enough in sweat.
The longer you trained in my dojo, the less you paid. It was part of a planned progression. Black belts either paid ten bucks a month, or nothing if they helped out. I don't mean by teaching, which some of them did as I considered them qualified to do so. But the ones that didn't teach either had to help clean or help out in another way. Provide a ride for someone once in a while, spread the word about seminars, courses, paint when it was needed, whatever, but help in some way. Some were just too damn busy to do anything, so they jut paid the ten bucks, gladly, trying to help the gym.

I never believed in Junior ranks. Might rethink that if I was doing it again, probably a good idea. At least up until Black. I could never, in good conscious, promote a kiddy black belt.

Everyone knew exactly what our policy was - no guarantee of any belt promotion what-so-ever, no matter how long you trained. Nobody seemed to care. (as far as I knew, anyway)

I'll tell you one thing I'd do differently. EVERYONE would pay. I had so many kids that were from one parent families they just couldn't afford it. So I let them come for free. Even provided them with used gis. Always told students that if they quit, please donate your gi to the gym, somebody will need it that can't afford it. (We had a whole closet and cabinet full of them, it was pretty awesome)

Here's a strange thing. I had a policy in place for fifteen years. All cops, fire fighters and EMTs trained for free. When I turned the gym over to my long time partner, the first thing he did was charge cops. (he was a Boston cop) You know what happened? The amount of cops increased by threefold. Go figure. Maybe they figured if it was free, it wasn't any good, I don't know. Never could figure that one out.