Do u like the idea of age 18 for a black belt?

[Xue Sheng]

Personally I'm going for black belt in a few weeks and I'm 16. It'll be a solid real black belt from Kukkiwon. Not a junior belt. Any way I hate the idea of 18 for a black belt. Because you can't honestly tell me that I'm not the skill level of a black belt just because I wasn't born in 1998. I don't see why a very skilled 12 year old can't get the belt if they earn it. If you go through the test, and pass..... why not? I think the belt should be on skill level and not age. Age may affect skill level but it should be based upon skills. I dedicate all my time to Taekwondo and definitely have the skills of a black belt. My Master already said I'm ready for the test. Any thoughts?


-Julian

Sorry, I am to old school here but...I do not think prior to 18 you should be able to get a black belt. That was the way it was when I started...I liked it then, 28 years before you were born, and I like it now

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

First my school (FMA, some schools there have NO belts). You go 1-9, no belt. Level 10 you get black. After that you do Red, which is Guro (Sifu/Sensei etc). So think Red as black with multiple dans but we just call em levels.

Fair enough. I have never been involved with a system like that, so I can't really comment on it.

My point is I have actually been in decision making situations for self defense. I have also responded to calls of people who were responding to such situations. Half the adults used over kill to defend themselves and in over 18 years I have yet to respond to a teenager who didn't use over kill... over kill risking arrest.

Ok, this makes more sense. While I disagree with that being the criteria, it is definitely valid criteria for some self-defense schools. My new question to you is, how do you determine this? It's not something I would imagine you can know unless they are in a self-defense situation, and I doubt you are putting them in one during the test, so far all the adults or teenagers who are testing for level 10/black belt, what method are you using to determine how they would handle themselves in a real self-defense situation.

I can also, if you wish, point you to the neuroscience that proves that teenagers are far less risk adverse and those prone to such poor decisions. Plenty of links on that one.

My point is that it's dicey enough with adults, now add the lack of maturity when it comes to teenagers and yeah...

I am fully aware of the neuroscience involved. Done more than enough research on that in undergrad and grad school on developmental psychology to get . However, in my mind that does not add up to a lack of maturity, just an increased chance for risky decisions. Running a red light in a video game, speeding in a car, or cliffdiving IMO shouldn't prevent someone from getting a black belt, as long as they are being mature and not taking those risks in the dojo/openly talking about them in front of other students. Again, I can see why one might disagree with this, but to me it's punishing them for something you have no actual evidence they are or would do.

Also, if you are using that as your reasoning, no one under the age of 25 should be awarded black belt. By the age of 15, teenagers are generally able to discern/calculate whether or not risks or appropriate and what is or isn't a good decision, but still take the risks they can state are not worth it. It isn't until around 25 or so that the limbic system is fully developed and there is no difference between their knowledge about risky decisions and their actions regarding them (I believe later if substance use or improper nutrition is taken into account, but don't quote me on that). Of course, if you believe the minimum age should be the mid-late 20s, disregard this paragraph.

 

[FlamingJulian]

Sorry, I am to old school here but...I do not think prior to 18 you should be able to get a black belt. That was the way it was when I started...I liked it then, 28 years before you were born, and I like it now

That's all good. Sorry but I'm new school and I'm happy that I'm going for black belt soon!


-Julian

 

[Buka]

That's all good. Sorry but I'm new school and I'm happy that I'm going for black belt soon!


-Julian

Great post, FJ!

 

[realg7]

Yeah in my school we have an exceptionally skilled teenager who is technically my senior BUT the Sifu has him in a "holding" pattern. It's not about his skill, rather it is about his patience and maturity which makes it difficult for him to think outside the box. As an example we teach the art "traditionally" but also go over the different self defense applications. One day he was showing off his skills and how you could go into a throat shot. I had to point out that such attacks can get you into legal hot water. He also has an issue with avoiding getting into "competitions" with kids his age. One day he and another student basically ran over other students to be behind the Sifu/Guro when we went to a run on conditioning day. Your school may be different but in mine black belts are also assistant instructors and he is, quite simply, not ready for that responsibility.

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I'm 37 and show off the throat cuts...I'm must be VERY immature. Lol

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[realg7]

That's all good. Sorry but I'm new school and I'm happy that I'm going for black belt soon!


-Julian

Go for it brother. You earned it. Age is but a number. And of course we all know we can get into legal trouble if we kill someone or hurt them badly LOL. As far as showing off, as long as its a trainer blade made of dull metal or made of wood , you can show off all you like....

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[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with most of what's been said, but honestly I find what's been stated as the differences between adults and 16ish year olds a bit too idealistic. I know too many adults that don't possess all or even a few of those characteristics.

As far as black belts and teaching, not all black belts can nor should teach. A lot of adults just don't possess that quality. I agree that a 1st dan should be able to work with a colored belt student or two individually to help them polish up technique or walk and talk them through stuff, but there's a huge difference between running a class for an hour or two and helping a lower ranked student out. There are several 2nd-4th dans I train with that are excellent karateka and no one would question their rank that don't teach because they wouldn't be very good teachers. They're very good at helping people like me when I ask (and even when I don't ask), but they wouldn't run a full class very effectively. Just throwing them the keys and saying "see you next week" wouldn't be the best choice my CI could make. They wouldn't do anything inappropriate by any means, but class would be awful. I do think however that if someone is at or near master level, they must be able to effectively teach and run their own dojo. Not from a running a business standpoint, but purely from a teaching standpoint.

Would I have been ready to be a black belt at 16 or 12 or younger if I was training back then (assuming this wasn't some black belt mill)? If my hypothetical teacher thought so, then yes. My rank is my rank; my name is (or was when I was a black belt) on my belt for a reason - it's mine. I know what I put into it. I defined my rank, it didn't define me. If an unworthy schmuck standing next to me in class has a few more stripes on his or her's, it doesn't downgrade mine. If someone with far more skill and knowledge had less stripes on their's, it doesn't make mine any better.

@Buka i really like your standard of having to defend against a full grown man. Knowing your track record here, I'm pretty confident that that was one of many prerequisites. Not that I'm saying you're wrong by any means, but what about someone who all the training in the world won't get them to be able to defend against a full grown black belt man? Would a 4'10 85 lb woman who trained hard day in and day out, and could easily hold her own against any average sized woman with respectable skill not be worthy of a black belt if she couldn't fully defend against the 5'10 185 lb guys? What about a 4'10 100 lb guy who could go toe to toe with any guy up to 6" taller and 50 lb heavier? I'm most likely wrong in my assumption, but it seems like some people have nearly no chance.

@FlamingJulian - if your teacher thinks you're ready, you're ready. Go earn it!

Don't confuse a minimum requirement with a standard. I think what folks are saying is that it's highly unlikely a 16-year-old would meet their standards of maturity, etc. for a black belt, so they don't normally offer them at that age. They aren't saying every (or even nearly every) adult has the requisite maturity, just that nearly no 16-year-olds do.

As for shodans teaching, again, we're back to the issue of trying to compare shodans between groups. In the mainline of NGA, if you aren't ready to/can't teach, you can't get your shodan. Their shodan is their teaching certification (part of the requirement is a year of supervised student teaching). I've seen folks stall at brown belt because they either weren't interested in teaching or they couldn't complete the requirements (either timewise or by ability).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can also, if you wish, point you to the neuroscience that proves that teenagers are far less risk adverse and those prone to such poor decisions. Plenty of links on that one.

Yep. The executive center (part of prefrontal cortex) is among the last parts of the brain to develop. Usually not completed until mid-20's. This area of the brain is responsible for part of our decision-making process, including consideration of long-term consequences. This is why a 30-year-old who has been driving for 6 months is less likely to have an accident than a 20-year-old who has been driving for 2-3 years. It's why most of us have stories of our foolishness in high school or college, but fewer stories of that type in our 30's and beyond.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Go for it brother. You earned it. Age is but a number. And of course we all know we can get into legal trouble if we kill someone or hurt them badly LOL. As far as showing off, as long as its a trainer blade made of dull metal or made of wood , you can show off all you like....

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A bit off-topic, but I felt the need to address this:

The problem with that showing off, in my opinion, is the habit it breeds. I don't let my students practice cutting throats and such except on rare occasions where we're dealing with absolute worst case scenarios. To me, it's like the schools I've seen where they end every knife defense by putting the knife down so their partner can pick it up to start the next attack. That's a bad habit. Under pressure, your brain will revert to habits, and it can be unpredictable which habits it will reach for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry, I am to old school here but...I do not think prior to 18 you should be able to get a black belt. That was the way it was when I started...I liked it then, 28 years before you were born, and I like it now

That was how it was in your association. Was it like that everywhere? I know many schools 40 years ago didn't teach children, so there would have been no way for someone to get to BB before 18.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also, if you are using that as your reasoning, no one under the age of 25 should be awarded black belt. By the age of 15, teenagers are generally able to discern/calculate whether or not risks or appropriate and what is or isn't a good decision, but still take the risks they can state are not worth it. It isn't until around 25 or so that the limbic system is fully developed and there is no difference between their knowledge about risky decisions and their actions regarding them (I believe later if substance use or improper nutrition is taken into account, but don't quote me on that). Of course, if you believe the minimum age should be the mid-late 20s, disregard this paragraph.

Generally accurate, with a couple of points to clarify.

First, it's not the limbic system that presents the ability to manage risk, but the executive center (in the prefrontal cortex). The limbic system is more involved in emotional control and evaluation, and is what the executive center balances. We all use the limbic system as the final arbiter of most decisions, but the adult brain is able to temper it with the long-term consequence considerations of the executive center. That's just me nit-picking, though, because your point is valid.

Second, it's not a cut-off point kind of thing, but a graduated scale. At 15, we generally have poor executive control (the reason so many teens, when asked "why did you do that" reply "I don't know"). By 25, we generally have pretty good executive control, with a fairly steady increase between those ages (ages, of course, variable by individual brain development). 18 isn't the optimal place to draw the line if we consider only maturity, but it's better than 15. 18 isn't an optimal place to draw the line if we consider only physical skill, but it's better than 25. I think for those who want a cut-off (and who consider BB to mean more than a starting point), 18 is a reasonable place.

 

[peteofred]

I guess it all comes down to the "ins and outs" of what you are training in and what the structure is within your dojo/school.

With me a black belt simply means that you are not a complete dunce bumbling around the tatami, it means you have shown enough merit to start getting into some serious training - and perhaps more importantly; understanding.

It is one thing to be able to do something, it is another thing entirely to know why.

All in all...whats the rush? You've got your whole life ahead of you

 

[Juany118]

Fair enough. I have never been involved with a system like that, so I can't really comment on it.



Ok, this makes more sense. While I disagree with that being the criteria, it is definitely valid criteria for some self-defense schools. My new question to you is, how do you determine this? It's not something I would imagine you can know unless they are in a self-defense situation, and I doubt you are putting them in one during the test, so far all the adults or teenagers who are testing for level 10/black belt, what method are you using to determine how they would handle themselves in a real self-defense situation.



I am fully aware of the neuroscience involved. Done more than enough research on that in undergrad and grad school on developmental psychology to get . However, in my mind that does not add up to a lack of maturity, just an increased chance for risky decisions. Running a red light in a video game, speeding in a car, or cliffdiving IMO shouldn't prevent someone from getting a black belt, as long as they are being mature and not taking those risks in the dojo/openly talking about them in front of other students. Again, I can see why one might disagree with this, but to me it's punishing them for something you have no actual evidence they are or would do.

Also, if you are using that as your reasoning, no one under the age of 25 should be awarded black belt. By the age of 15, teenagers are generally able to discern/calculate whether or not risks or appropriate and what is or isn't a good decision, but still take the risks they can state are not worth it. It isn't until around 25 or so that the limbic system is fully developed and there is no difference between their knowledge about risky decisions and their actions regarding them (I believe later if substance use or improper nutrition is taken into account, but don't quote me on that). Of course, if you believe the minimum age should be the mid-late 20s, disregard this paragraph.

I believe, and I could be wrong, that in your mid 20's you still have the lower aversion to risk BUT the neural pathways are established enough you can train the control needed in specific circumstances far more effectively (think military and LEO training). I would hope that any MA school that is teaching self defense is also teaching the when and why, not just the what and how. Thing is you can teach the teen the former and it just doesn't "click", at least in my experience.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That was how it was in your association. Was it like that everywhere? I know many schools 40 years ago didn't teach children, so there would have been no way for someone to get to BB before 18.

Japanese jujutsu, and he had one kids class... I was in it

 

[Xue Sheng]

Great post, FJ!

Oh man...that hurts.....now I feel old, cantankerous and stuck in my ways....old school...

 

[Juany118]

I'm 37 and show off the throat cuts...I'm must be VERY immature. Lol

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Lol it is fun but it was the context. The Guro was showing an example of taking a series of empty hand techniques and putting them in a self defense context. The kid went and said "why not this" and went with the throat shot. I am kinda the "UoF continuum consultant" for the class so I was like "ummm yeah...no."

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's all good. Sorry but I'm new school and I'm happy that I'm going for black belt soon!


-Julian

Oh yeah well let me tell you... just kidding

There are always exceptions to the rule, Benny, "the Jet" Urquidez got his Black belt at 14, in the 1960s when it was unheard of, and from what I read there were few at the time that did not agree he deserved it. My youngest, if she keeps at it, might be a black belt in Aikido before she is 18 too. If someone deserves it, they deserve it. My biggest issue with many black belts given out these days is that it seems to be based more in time in an art than skill in an art.

 

[Juany118]

Oh yeah well let me tell you... just kidding

There are always exceptions to the rule, Benny, "the Jet" Urquidez got his Black belt at 14, in the 1960s when it was unheard of, and from what I read there were few at the time that did not agree he deserved it. My youngest, if she keeps at it, might be a black belt in Aikido before she is 18 too. If someone deserves it, they deserve it. My biggest issue with many black belts given out these days is that it seems to be based more in time in an art than skill in an art.

Yeah. As I said earlier, my school only has belts starting at level 10 (lack of belts seems to be a traditional FMA thing) we do have ranks that you simply know. What I also like about our school is that when testing is coming up the Guro has no problem approaching people privately and telling them that they won't be testing this time around because, for whatever reason, he sees them as unprepared.

 

[WaterGal]

Skills, fitness, techniques I'm sure you have. What about the maturity to teach people twice your age or even older? What about being able to help a victim of abuse learn martial arts in a safe way? What about having the patience to teach people without your agility and learning ability? What about keeping a mixed ability class interested and learning? What about dealing with students your age who chatter and give you cheek? What about getting the best out of students, understanding that people have families/careers/lives and can't spend as much time as you training? What do you know about child protection? You may have the physical skills but there's a whole lot more to being a black belt than doing techniques.

I think this is a very good reason to not allow students under 18 to become instructors (heck, even 18 is pretty young for that IMO). But not every student is instructor material, regardless of age or experience. Plenty of people are good at doing but not at teaching.

 

[Tez3]

I think this is a very good reason to not allow students under 18 to become instructors (heck, even 18 is pretty young for that IMO). But not every student is instructor material, regardless of age or experience. Plenty of people are good at doing but not at teaching.

Very true and most places do expect their black belts to teach if not actually be classed as instructors even those places where 3rd Dan or higher is the instructor rank.