Thanks.As I've said, I'm not the martial arts police, nor do I care to be. In the end, despite the black eye, the watering down, etc, that some places may do, the shady tactics they use, really don't matter, because like you, I'm not watching their tests, and I most likely won't be training in places like that. I'm happy with the standards of testing that my teachers have. You're right...those people will have to live with the choices they make. My outlook on 8yr old 2nd dans probably isn't going to change, but I will try to be a bit more tactful with my display of disapproval.
Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...
- Thread starter Blaze Dragon
- Start date
That actually was me this time.All sounds fair to me.
I think that some arts lend themselves to it far more than others do, and some organizations in particular more so than others.
Taekwondo is a good example. The art is mostly striking and the forms are all performed solo and in a pattern. Within taekwondo, you have the KKW, which specifies a pum belt for the wee ones, but has no policy against giving them a black belt instead. Then you have the ATA, which has competition brackets for five year old black belts.
Hapkido does not lend itself in that way, though I do know of a school that does teach kids hapkido and issues black belts in it to kids. I have not heard about any major accidents at the school, but just the same, I'd rather not take my chances in my own studio.
BJJ doesn't lend itself to children with a black belt simply because of the time in grade required to get it; you'd have to be training in the womb to be black belt at the age of ten, and that assumes no age minimum (there may be one).
I agree that it would be nice to see the structure, but just as there was a time when belts weren't used at all, the martial arts landscape has changed. Belts are utilized differently than some of us remember. Some popular arts, like MMA, don't even use them.
Ultimately, my only requirement be that the training is good and that the school owner doesn't try too hard to gouge the students financially.
Just to add a bit more...and it all goes back to the 1 bad apple ruins the bunch mentality. I think that when you see an art doing something 'suspect', it makes everyone think that anyone who teaches that art, is also 'suspect'. Take the Bujinkan for example...you see guys running around with high rank, jetting off to Japan every chance they get, to get a promotion. The consensus of many, is that the Bujinkan is a joke, compared to the higher standards that you'd see in the Jinenkan or Genbukan. Does that mean every Buj. inst. is shady? Probably not, but it raises the red flag, in essence, giving the entire art, a bad rep.
Well, the potential is certainly there for that.
The only problem in this instance is that the main market of dojos with huge kids programs are people who are more concerned about making their child a more well rounded person and with providing their child with a nice after school activity that doesn't involve video games.
That actually was me this time.
LOL!
BJJ and their ranking is something I mentioned earlier. I commented how long it takes to reach black, yet nobody seems to care or complain. When the rank happens, it happens. They might have a youth belt system, I really don't know. Either way, I also asked what the rush was, with some people, in other arts, with ranking. Almost seems like if someone starts at a certain age, it's almost expected that at specific intervals a test will happen, and you can pretty much expect a BB by a certain time. IMHO, the time frames are simply a guide. People hear it takes 2mo to go from white to yellow and dammit, at that 2mo mark, you better get tested.
As for the TKD...well, I should probably not comment or think before I speak.
LOL! That is an excellent example though, of the black eye that art gives.True. Personally, I'd rather see a kid in a physical activity than sitting idle. Of course, IMO, I think those goals can still be reached, while still maintaining some sort of quality in the school.
I don't know that TKD gives anything a black eye; not speculation I'm willing to make.BJJ and their ranking is something I mentioned earlier. I commented how long it takes to reach black, yet nobody seems to care or complain. When the rank happens, it happens. They might have a youth belt system, I really don't know. Either way, I also asked what the rush was, with some people, in other arts, with ranking. Almost seems like if someone starts at a certain age, it's almost expected that at specific intervals a test will happen, and you can pretty much expect a BB by a certain time. IMHO, the time frames are simply a guide. People hear it takes 2mo to go from white to yellow and dammit, at that 2mo mark, you better get tested.
As for the TKD...well, I should probably not comment or think before I speak.
I do know that it is the most heavily commercialized of any Asian art that I can think of, and it crosses over heavily into school athletics and the Olympic movement. The black belt has been used as a marketing tool because it is so recognizable, and the fact that in TKD the ildan is really just a beginning rank that does not take all that long to achieve has served commercial schools very, very well.
I think I have said enough earlier but as to maintaining integrity in the system I will just say that if I were to award a black belt to a minor, that person will be capable of holding there own, physically and mentally, in adult company and that applies to any black belt of mine.
Having said that you will not find any children running around my dojo with the equivalent of an adult belt of any colour. If I ever do go back to teaching children they will have a junior rank and they can grade to an appropriate adult rank when they are physically capable of doing it. Just don't expect to see me grading junior fifth dans to adult fifth dan any time soon.
:asian:
Having said that you will not find any children running around my dojo with the equivalent of an adult belt of any colour. If I ever do go back to teaching children they will have a junior rank and they can grade to an appropriate adult rank when they are physically capable of doing it. Just don't expect to see me grading junior fifth dans to adult fifth dan any time soon.
:asian:
generalneon
White Belt
Is there different curriculum for youth students for other styles? I'm just familiar with Tang Soo Do, and the forms, one-steps, ect., are for all students, regardless of age. If they are being taught something different than the adult students, doesn't that, in and of itself, dilute the art?
The problem is that the parents who have children with black belts or the children themselves aren't really the ones you disapprove of. It's the school owners who perpetuate the practice.My outlook on 8yr old 2nd dans probably isn't going to change, but I will try to be a bit more tactful with my display of disapproval.
And after such schools have milked the parents for hundreds of dollars worth of testing fees, mom and dad have a psychological need to defend their investment. When they come here, a blunt remark precipitates a less than friendly argument where no matter who wins, everyone loses.
Meanwhile, the actual culprit is counting his money and driving his new Lexus.
Safety issues not withstanding, I don't believe that there should be a curriculum differentiation.
If there is a safety issue, then teach what you can teach and try to communicate the principles of the art within that context so that when the heavier material comes later, it fits in well within the framework the student has built.
Can I say, if your daughter was my daughter I would be as proud of her as you are. If she was my student I would be over the moon because I absolutely love it when my students excel. I no longer teach children because the training we do now is different to what we used to do. In the past we taught basics and we taught kata to children. We did sparring with noodles hitting below the knee to teach entering and evasion. There were two man drills but no sparring. Adults and older children, say from 16, trained with much more contact, a lot more self defence and a lot more aggression. In those days I tried to slow the belt progression so that a junior wouldn't by up to junior black belt until about 15 or 16. Then they could grade to adult black belt when they were physically capable of matching it with adults. All junior belts had a white stripe.
The training we do now is not suitable for children in that it is quite violent. I don't want a situation where I teach children certain things for 10 years or so then have to turn round and say, "ok, now you are older we'll show you the real stuff".
So I pass younger kids over to friends who have the facilities and the desire to teach children. If I taught children what I teach adults and they used their training at school I can see a lot of problems. Now I know people will say if the children are taught properly there shouldn't be a problem and that is true to the point where, under stress, your training takes over and the brown stuff hits the fan.
If you go back to the early times in Okinawa the training was restricted to the few people accepted by a teacher. It wasn't until the government recognised the health benefits of the training that it was introduced into the schools. But the training in the schools was but a shadow of what was taught to the adults. Nobody would be happy to see kids using potentially lethal techniques on each other.
That is why I feel so strongly against giving children an adult rank. I can understand where you are coming from in a system where the adults and children are taught the same things. I can't see how they are going to overcome the problem that that creates. I have difficulty even envisaging a system where the adult training is the same as training for sub-teens.
:asian:
Saying the black belt shouldn't be put on a pedestal was a bit off topic. I was thinking about some of the stuff I've said on other posts, that if brown is the belt rank right before black, as it is in lots of dojos, that going from brown to black should not be such a big jump, it should simply be sequential. Especially if your sensei is from Japan.
Now, the idea of a five year old having a black belt I think is absurd. Why? Because a typical five year old would not be able to meet the requirements for getting a black belt, at least not if the requirements are, in my opinion, requirements worth having for the black belt. In my dojo one of the requirements for black belt is that you have to be able to take a hit like a full grown man, (and no this does not involve directly taking a hit, as I stated before you hold a pad and somebody hits the pad full force and you have to be able to take the impact.) That, and most of the other physical and mental requirements for black belt a typical five year old would not be able to meet, at least in my dojo they wouldn't.
Not that I'm advocating that you start teaching children again, but regarding this sentence, why not? That is part of kids' lives. They spend six years in kindergarten and elementary school receiving a basic education. Then for three more years, they receive a more advanced education. Then they spend four years learning still more advanced material, at which point, they decide what 'real stuff' they wish to pursue in college for another four or more years.
I can think of a lot of reasons not to teach young kids. I currently only teach kids thirteen and up because I simply don't have the time right now to offer a dedicated children's class, and young kids mixed into an adult class is almost never a good idea because it impacts the class in such a way that one group learns at the expense of the other or both groups suffer.
But I have no qualms about making young kids wait on things that I don't believe in teaching to young kids.
Young kids can ride a bicycle and once their ready, a mini bike and dirt bikes. But that motorcycle license and a real road bike have to wait until the rider is sixteen. As MJS said, what's the hurry?
I only said that, because that is one art that comes to mind, where you tend to see a lot of young kids with BBs. When you hear people reference the art as Take My Dough, well, right or wrong, you can probably see why people view that art the way they do. Is every TKD dojo out there using shady tactics? I honestly don't know. I'd really like to hope that there's a few at least, that uphold some quality standards.
A few of the Kenpo dojos that I've trained at, had a separate curriculum for kids. Older kids, ie: 14, 15 yrs old, could possibly be in the adult class, depending on maturity and ability to fit in well with an older group of students, but kids that are younger, have fewer techs and kata per belt level. Those kids will test for a Jr. Black Belt. While those kids mature, they'll go back and learn the remaining material. When they're ready, they'll test for their adult black belt.
TKD is the most widely practiced art, and as such it's more visible. I suspect that if it were possible to really research this, you'd find that there are about the same percentage of baby black belts in other arts.
Larger orgs make easier targets. In the SCUBA world, PADI is the largest, and (just like TKD) some people refer to it as Put Another Dollar In.
