discussion of techniques

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest. [/B]

Wicked thrust there. Backward blast, if possible. Then left kick to his exposed right side, as his knife hand stretches out.

If not possible, then left hand block (you had better have a firm block there), right hand knuckle punch to the neck, or jab to the eyes, or straight punch to the eyes (yes! the area surrounding the eyes are extremely susceptible to strike), or front kick to the groin (if target is within reach, else kick to the face if he is crouching)

The military teaches a cross hand block, grap that hand, kick to the groin, twist arm and turn, yank him to the ground, disarm him. Hmmmm...... too many steps. Murphy's law might take over.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
For #2 from a south paw, a half step shuffle back avoiding the knife and a full step shuffle forward and a low JKD (with my upper body leaning back) side kick to the knee. Front or rear knee, whichever is in position for me to take.

Then proceed with one of my other examples to disarm.

Pendulum swing?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Pendulum swing?

I think thats what some call it. I came from the "Macias Method" and they use a little differant terminology. Thats why I said a low JKD side kick. The shuffle is JKD, the kick is Savate, except without the arms flying all over the place. The hands are always in position for whatevers next.

A lot of the Oakland guys did go to Dan Inosanto for certification. So the terminology is similar. But they turned their backs on Dan and said their JKD is differant.

The Maciases have walked their own path all along and they are by far more "technical" than any of the other "original" Oakland students.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

I know practically nothing about Savate. Is it true that in Savate kicks, there is no chambering? (Ie you just use your leg like a club.)

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I know practically nothing about Savate. Is it true that in Savate kicks, there is no chambering? (Ie you just use your leg like a club.)

I think your in the right direction with your assumption on Savate. I don't know it either, I just know pretty much where the JKDs techniques came from on, early on that is. Today is way to differant for anyone to know it all.

Your a kicker, it might be in your interest to give it a search and see what you come up with.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Actually I have searched. Surprisingly there is almost no info on Savate. I have a feeling that it must be exclusively French. Just a wild guess.

 

[Mormegil]

I'm not so sure about the lack of chambering.

I had a teacher who did some Savate. The side kick I learned actually had a GIANT chamber. The knee came up to the chest, and the thrust actually propels you forward to gain some ground, so you can start the kick out of range. I think the kick was called the Chaise, or something like that. I can't spell French, but it was pronounced, 'Sha-Say'

I found the kick to be ridicously telegraphic for me - maybe I just wasn't doing it right.

Akja, I'm having trouble imagining in my mind's eye your defenses. When you say left over right on the first scenario, do you mean, left in front of right, or right in front of left, with the left being on top? Also, is your left "wrist" grabbing his wrist a typo?

Also, pardon my ignorance. What is a south paw vs. north paw stance?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

North Paw is just the traditional boxing stance, ie left lead. South Paw is the JKD stance of right lead.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I'm not so sure about the lack of chambering.

I had a teacher who did some Savate. The side kick I learned actually had a GIANT chamber. The knee came up to the chest, and the thrust actually propels you forward to gain some ground, so you can start the kick out of range. I think the kick was called the Chaise, or something like that. I can't spell French, but it was pronounced, 'Sha-Say'

I found the kick to be ridicously telegraphic for me - maybe I just wasn't doing it right.

Akja, I'm having trouble imagining in my mind's eye your defenses. When you say left over right on the first scenario, do you mean, left in front of right, or right in front of left, with the left being on top? Also, is your left "wrist" grabbing his wrist a typo?

Also, pardon my ignorance. What is a south paw vs. north paw stance?

South paw is a right lead and the north paw is a left lead or conventional stance.

The left over right is the cross block which comes from Karate. Some people might call it an X block, when you cross your wrists overhead to catch a block. Sound familiar?

When my left grabs his wrist, it is the transition from the cross block to the disarm where my left goes from the cross position to a "gripping" position on his wrist and all at the same time my right hand goes around his right arm and back to my left wrist to make a "figure4" armcrank.

I'll goe through some of my books and scan a couple of pics and post them here. They will be separate though, meaning a pic of the cross block and a pic of the arm crank and you should be able to see it clear as day after that.

All techniques that I describe are how I use them and not exactly in the same format that I may have learned them. But thats the way that we make techniques work, by learning them and modifying them to fit us.

I'll try and remember to do that tonite.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by akja


When my left grabs his wrist, it is the transition from the cross block to the disarm where my left goes from the cross position to a "gripping" position on his wrist and all at the same time my right hand goes around his right arm and back to my left wrist to make a "figure4" armcrank.

I think I get it. I assume, your right hand goes underneath the opponent's arm, in a counter-clockwise manner, reaches over, then pulls inward to tuck their elbow in towards you.

The confusion stems from my usual implementation of the figure-4, which involves an outside right to right grab, with my left hand grabbing my right forearm. Same thing, just switched arms.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I think I get it. I assume, your right hand goes underneath the opponent's arm, in a counter-clockwise manner, reaches over, then pulls inward to tuck their elbow in towards you.

The confusion stems from my usual implementation of the figure-4, which involves an outside right to right grab, with my left hand grabbing my right forearm. Same thing, just switched arms.

Yes, you can go under or straight around and with either hand as well. I write the way I use most freely use a technique and the way I apply it allows me to go forward. If we end up on the ground, I plan to be on top.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by akja
Yes, you can go under or straight around and with either hand as well. I write the way I use most freely use a technique and the way I apply it allows me to go forward. If we end up on the ground, I plan to be on top.

I went through several of my books last nite and each one described the figure4 armlock/crank as going under the arm. It will provide much more torch in the long run but the way I do it is way easier and faster to pull off and when your in that position (your position vs. his position) you will not need the extra torch.

In disarming any weapon, the common goal is a combination of the simplest, most direct, fastest and most efficient use of your technique.

 

[Mormegil]

The upward diagonal knife thrust to the belly is a tough one.

One of the reasons I asked, was to get some better ideas for how I would handle it. Personally, I can pretty much avoid getting stuck, by blocking/parrying with my lower left outside forearm with the elbow sort of down, and redirecting / pushing it to the inside, as I step with my right foot back and left to swing to the outside.

I would have to be pretty quick to do this at speed (I don't know if I'm there yet, but I've seen others do this well), and grab his wrist/hand with my right from underneath, and switch my left hand to a wrist lock, grabbing the pad of the thumb, turning the blade to the left. Once I've got the lock, I can try to either eject or grab the blade from the back for the disarm. This works best if the attacker gave a relatively commited thrust, which would probably be necessary from 3 feet away. Before I could grab, I might have to slide my right arm below his wrist to kind of hook him in to control things slightly - sort of a travelling x-block, with the left elbow down, left forearm facing up & right forearm down. I need to ask someone to feed this to me so I can see what comes out.

An experienced knife fighter might quickly withdraw the blad with an outward turn to cut me on the forearm. This is why I block with the outside of my forearm. Less arteries and if I get cut on the outside, I can still grab and form a fist, unlike if my tendons get cut on the inside.

I really like the kick to the knee that several people mentioned. I personally would avoid the midline or high kicks, as a good knife fighter will block or jam using the knife, and you can get stuck or cut pretty badly using your own power.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
The upward diagonal knife thrust to the belly is a tough one.

One of the reasons I asked, was to get some better ideas for how I would handle it. Personally, I can pretty much avoid getting stuck, by blocking/parrying with my lower left outside forearm with the elbow sort of down, and redirecting / pushing it to the inside, as I step with my right foot back and left to swing to the outside.

I would have to be pretty quick to do this at speed (I don't know if I'm there yet, but I've seen others do this well), and grab his wrist/hand with my right from underneath, and switch my left hand to a wrist lock, grabbing the pad of the thumb, turning the blade to the left. Once I've got the lock, I can try to either eject or grab the blade from the back for the disarm. This works best if the attacker gave a relatively commited thrust, which would probably be necessary from 3 feet away. Before I could grab, I might have to slide my right arm below his wrist to kind of hook him in to control things slightly - sort of a travelling x-block, with the left elbow down, left forearm facing up & right forearm down. I need to ask someone to feed this to me so I can see what comes out.

An experienced knife fighter might quickly withdraw the blad with an outward turn to cut me on the forearm. This is why I block with the outside of my forearm. Less arteries and if I get cut on the outside, I can still grab and form a fist, unlike if my tendons get cut on the inside.

I really like the kick to the knee that several people mentioned. I personally would avoid the midline or high kicks, as a good knife fighter will block or jam using the knife, and you can get stuck or cut pretty badly using your own power.

Any knife disarm is hard as well as dangerous. I need a lot of work there because its something I never really focused on. If you think about it, a knife is a very likely weapon to be attacked with.

I stated that I really don't like the cross block. The reasons are, for the knife situation, I "created a bigger" target for the attacker to cut or stab by crossing my arms.

My main reason though is because in Jun Fan, if they use a cross block, its to easy to trap his two arms with one of my hands leaving me one free hand to strike with.

 

[Mormegil]

I would like to clarify a few points about my post.

When I said I would have to be pretty quick, that's because as this point, I don't think I could pull off that disarm at speed. I think I can parry the thrust, and not get stuck, but at this point, I don't have a good answer for a disarm that I'm confident with. What I posted is a theoretical solution, that I don't think I can pull off just yet with an experienced knife fighter.

The analogy of the "traveling" x-block: I'm not a big fan of the x-block myself. I want to differentiate a "traditional" x-block with what I would try to do. It doesn't block as an x. It blocks with a lowered elbow, blocking/parrying at the outside forearm, then it pushes the arm down and to the right, and my right arm shoots in underneath. At this point, it looks kind of like an x-block, except it's turned on it's side. The left arm would be over the right, and the whole thing would be rotated counter-clockwise about 60-80 degrees. In Jun Fan terminology, it would be an overlapping low left biu sao over a low left boang sao, except the energy is all wrong (just to give an idea of the structure). This is transitional, as the right hand twists clockwise to expose the palm to the back of the opponent's hand to grab, while both arms move up to carry the opponent's limb up.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I would like to clarify a few points about my post.

When I said I would have to be pretty quick, that's because as this point, I don't think I could pull off that disarm at speed. I think I can parry the thrust, and not get stuck, but at this point, I don't have a good answer for a disarm that I'm confident with. What I posted is a theoretical solution, that I don't think I can pull off just yet with an experienced knife fighter.

The analogy of the "traveling" x-block: I'm not a big fan of the x-block myself. I want to differentiate a "traditional" x-block with what I would try to do. It doesn't block as an x. It blocks with a lowered elbow, blocking/parrying at the outside forearm, then it pushes the arm down and to the right, and my right arm shoots in underneath. At this point, it looks kind of like an x-block, except it's turned on it's side. The left arm would be over the right, and the whole thing would be rotated counter-clockwise about 60-80 degrees. In Jun Fan terminology, it would be an overlapping low left biu sao over a low left boang sao, except the energy is all wrong (just to give an idea of the structure). This is transitional, as the right hand twists clockwise to expose the palm to the back of the opponent's hand to grab, while both arms move up to carry the opponent's limb up.

Where do you live in L.A.?

I will be going down there to train with one of my instructors later this year. Maybe we could train sometime in the future.

Right now I have buisness in Fresno and I go to Fresno about twice a month. That is half way to L.A. from San Jose.

 

[sweeper]

1: the crazy unskilled knifer.

I'm assumming I'm very cramped, enough so that I can't get around him. I want to throw anything and everything at him, if there is nothing I'll take my coat or shirt off and whip it at him or throw it because I probably am gona need a distraction to get the knife. I would then slap the knifehand inside with my left wial stepping left to get out of the blade path, and meet it with a horizontal elbow. On the elbows rebound I would use my right hand to peel the knife out. If I still have control of the arm I would getmy right hand on his wrist and left hand/forearm/elbow on his tricep and pull him off ballance and into whatever keeped my from running.

2: The crazy skilled knifer.

This one sucks even more.. he's close so I don't have alot of time.. if I can move back or to the side to keep out of range, I will. If I can't I would block the hit with my forearm in tight, basicly trying to minimise dammage, and throw a thrust kick to create distance, hopefully I can kick him to a side(if I'm in a good position) and run. I would try to get a weapon if at all posable, and using it to keep him from a fas advance try to get around him or try to draw a long attack I can deal with without as much risk.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil .......An experienced knife fighter might quickly withdraw the blad with an outward turn to cut me on the forearm. This is why I block with the outside of my forearm. Less arteries and if I get cut on the outside, I can still grab and form a fist, unlike if my tendons get cut on the inside.

I really like the kick to the knee that several people mentioned. I personally would avoid the midline or high kicks, as a good knife fighter will block or jam using the knife, and you can get stuck or cut pretty badly using your own power. [/B]

An experienced knife fighter will just slash as you and use the knife as nothing more than an extension of his hand. He wouldn't stick it all out to let you grap it. He knows all too well about all those common knife disarm techniques.

If you have time to gauge whether the attacker is experienced or not, great. (and good luck too , lol ) But most likely you would be surprised. The one who means to stab you, WILL NOT brandish the knife and wave it around. He will most likely hide it from sight, and try to get close enough and insert it into you. That is why most of the widely known disarm techniques simply don't work. Not only they don't work, they would most likely get you sliced into pieces. ( Good luck Akja. Hope you have really good medical insurance and life insurance )

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
An experienced knife fighter will just slash as you and use the knife as nothing more than an extension of his hand. He wouldn't stick it all out to let you grap it. He knows all too well about all those common knife disarm techniques.

If you have time to gauge whether the attacker is experienced or not, great. (and good luck too , lol ) But most likely you would be surprised. The one who means to stab you, WILL NOT brandish the knife and wave it around. He will most likely hide it from sight, and try to get close enough and insert it into you. That is why most of the widely known disarm techniques simply don't work. Not only they don't work, they would most likely get you sliced into pieces. ( Good luck Akja. Hope you have really good medical insurance and life insurance )

Yet again, this thread is a discussion of stylistic responses, not how applicable they may or may not be

When it comes to application, there are no guarantees. No example can be offered than someone can't poke holes in. This is especially true with knives.

But by reading different stylistic responses to various attacks, we can learn more about how other styles approach things and, in turn, may gain some more depth into how we approach them ... if we keep an open mind.

Mike

edited to remove double-up of "Mike" (hate it when I do that)

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
An experienced knife fighter will just slash as you and use the knife as nothing more than an extension of his hand. He wouldn't stick it all out to let you grap it. He knows all too well about all those common knife disarm techniques.

If you have time to gauge whether the attacker is experienced or not, great. (and good luck too , lol ) But most likely you would be surprised. The one who means to stab you, WILL NOT brandish the knife and wave it around. He will most likely hide it from sight, and try to get close enough and insert it into you. That is why most of the widely known disarm techniques simply don't work. Not only they don't work, they would most likely get you sliced into pieces. ( Good luck Akja. Hope you have really good medical insurance and life insurance )

We are just discussing the differant approaches to differant situations. Nobody here is teaching. If you want instruction, you need to pay for it!

You're wrong. If you paid attention to my posts throughout all the threads that "we've" contributed to, then you would know that my instincts are grab or trap and thats exaxtly what it takes to stop the knife, to make that initial "stop" and transition to disarm.

It is quite possible to get stabbed or slashed, the odds are against you, but thats not the focus of the topic.

Also I admitted that I never took this area serious enough before and I need work at it. And you are right about the slashing, if I wanted to cut someone, they would be cut!

But your Thai is to differant for you to see the techniques the way "our" master instructors do. Traditional Ju Jitsu is the answer, you just have to see it for what it is.

No art can be used the way you learn it in class. You have to look past the robotic movements and actually see the techniques in your mind.

You learn it, then you learn to flow with it.