discussion of techniques

[Mormegil]

I've never tried this, but what do you guys think?

As the guys comes in for the tackle, sink down, dropping one foot back (half sprawl?), blocking him with your forearms at the shoulders, and clamp in immediately for the MT plaum (sp?). Twist their neck, and hence their head, and hence their body to the same side as the foot you moved back. Either pull them downward and let go for a fall, or fire a knee.

At first, I was thinking regular sprawl, but I think that might be weird with the plaum.

I have no idea if this would be effective. Any comments?

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I've never tried this, but what do you guys think?

As the guys comes in for the tackle, sink down, dropping one foot back (half sprawl?), blocking him with your forearms at the shoulders, and clamp in immediately for the MT plaum (sp?). Twist their neck, and hence their head, and hence their body to the same side as the foot you moved back. Either pull them downward and let go for a fall, or fire a knee.

At first, I was thinking regular sprawl, but I think that might be weird with the plaum.

I have no idea if this would be effective. Any comments?

You'll have to get low enough to be below their center of gravity. Otherwise, they'll bowl you over. If you could do that, though, then it should work fine.

Mike

 

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by akja
The picture attached (I'M THE SHORT GUY) is a classic position that I like to be in. In this range I've nearly eliminated the striking range. I'm also in a decent controlling the position. Its easy to move into close range strikes or grappling whether it be on the ground or standing up.

I would argue that in the picture you have attached you are at no advantage over your opponent. You are in range for him to head butt you... he is facing you... his legs are open to kick you freely... The only advantage you may have here in real life is that you know martial arts and hopefully the aggressor doesn't, in which case you should have the upper hand. :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by vin2k0
I would argue that in the picture you have attached you are at no advantage over your opponent. You are in range for him to head butt you... he is facing you... his legs are open to kick you freely... The only advantage you may have here in real life is that you know martial arts and hopefully the aggressor doesn't, in which case you should have the upper hand. :asian:

Maybe from a Karate perspective its not as advantageous as it is in Gung-fu, but thats where my sensitivity is.

I spend a lot of time with my students (even biginners) right there in that range and we work in both directions. A fight can can go in any direction at any time. There is no way to predict or count on anything.

Many people work heavy on the outside ranges and to the opposite extreme many people are working on the ground which is fine. Many people say that most real fights end up on the ground. So if that has any truth to it, then which range is it that we are actually "losing control" of the fight and ending up on the ground? Pretty much that same range in that picture. That range is overlooked and anybody I teach will learn all the ranges including that range.

Its only natural, that if you work stand up fighting and ground grappling that you would work the in between as well.

The pic shows my range where I flow well and where I'm comfortable and thats the "advantage" that the picture can't tell the observer.:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
You'll have to get low enough to be below their center of gravity. Otherwise, they'll bowl you over. If you could do that, though, then it should work fine.

Mike

Also an option when you get your center of gravity low enough is to put your arms underneath his armpits and control his arms upward keeping his energy flowing upward instead of downward. It helps you to stay in control and on your feet.

 

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by akja
I spend a lot of time with my students (even biginners) right there in that range and we work in both directions. A fight can can go in any direction at any time. There is no way to predict or count on anything.

Many people work heavy on the outside ranges and to the opposite extreme many people are working on the ground which is fine. Many people say that most real fights end up on the ground. So if that has any truth to it, then which range is it that we are actually "losing control" of the fight and ending up on the ground? Pretty much that same range in that picture. That range is overlooked and anybody I teach will learn all the ranges including that range.
.:asian:

I do not dispute that we should practise from this position, we should indeed practise from every position, i was simply commenting that the position in the picture isnt a perfect position to be in... sorry if i was mis-understood.

 

[Bod]

I would argue that in the picture you have attached you are at no advantage over your opponent. You are in range for him to head butt you... he is facing you... his legs are open to kick you freely... The only advantage you may have here in real life is that you know martial arts and hopefully the aggressor doesn't, in which case you should have the upper hand.

I disagree. Since the defenders arms are on top of the aggressors it make it very difficult for the aggressor to kick. The kick would be immediately telegraphed through the arms, and a swift push down would stop the motion immediately. It is in fact not only possible but easy to do this with your eyes shut.

The aggressor doesn't have the same advantage as to stopping the defender's kicks though ...

A headbutt or grappling is a danger, but closing the gap is difficult since the arms can be turned to the side, or pulled, neutralising such an attack. This takes more skill though in my experience.

You have to understand that this range is all about feeling the aggressor's moves rather than seeing them, and it is what the 'Southerny' Kung Fu styles excel in.

I don't mean to sound all preachy or anything, BTW, your objection was certainly valid, and shed a lot of light on the variations in style of the posters to this forum, and I have really enjoyed this thread so far.

Personally I like to be in even closer, because I am a judo man now, but even in full on grappling, the moves I mentioned above work well to control your opponent's whole body through the use of his arms alone.

On the subject of the forward tackle the defence depends on how low your opponent is and how fast he is coming at you.

If you cannot sink fast enough to get under him, and this is a real possibility, then you have to push him down sprawling a little. You may be able to strike down too, but I have never practiced this. I've never seen anyone push up from here, and I imagine striking or kicking up would be difficult. Even if you connect with an upwards kick, knocking him out even, you may still get bowled over. Correct me you kickers if you've had success this way.

I constantly push my opponents head into the mat in practice, when someone tries a surprise tackle, and this skill was very simple to learn. You don't really need to sprawl too much, but if you don't you have to move around your opponent, which is learned very quickly and instinctively.

If the person comes at you higher, then pushing down will be of no use, but you can get underneath him or move around him. I've found this sort of response harder to learn, because a low charge or leg grab is just that, and nothing more, but a bit higher up and there is a lot more variation, the whole gamut of fighting techniques in fact.

I'd like to see what the strikers and kickers have to say about the tackle. Are any of you allowed to do low tackles in sparring? I think the tackle is one of the most basic types of attack - i.e. heavy, long, force coming straight at you, so the response to this sort of attack should shed a lot of light onto the variations in style.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by vin2k0
I do not dispute that we should practise from this position, we should indeed practise from every position, i was simply commenting that the position in the picture isnt a perfect position to be in... sorry if i was mis-understood.

Not misunderstood. We all see things from a differant perpective and thats what this thread is about. If we are able to see what others see then we should be able to grow as individual martial artists.

 

[Bod]

I agree. Training with people from different styles is always interesting, but this is sort of discussion is almost as good.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Bod
I disagree. Since the defenders arms are on top of the aggressors it make it very difficult for the aggressor to kick. The kick would be immediately telegraphed through the arms, and a swift push down would stop the motion immediately. It is in fact not only possible but easy to do this with your eyes shut.

The aggressor doesn't have the same advantage as to stopping the defender's kicks though ...

A headbutt or grappling is a danger, but closing the gap is difficult since the arms can be turned to the side, or pulled, neutralising such an attack. This takes more skill though in my experience.

You have to understand that this range is all about feeling the aggressor's moves rather than seeing them, and it is what the 'Southerny' Kung Fu styles excel in.

I don't mean to sound all preachy or anything, BTW, your objection was certainly valid, and shed a lot of light on the variations in style of the posters to this forum, and I have really enjoyed this thread so far.

Personally I like to be in even closer, because I am a judo man now, but even in full on grappling, the moves I mentioned above work well to control your opponent's whole body through the use of his arms alone.

On the subject of the forward tackle the defence depends on how low your opponent is and how fast he is coming at you.

If you cannot sink fast enough to get under him, and this is a real possibility, then you have to push him down sprawling a little. You may be able to strike down too, but I have never practiced this. I've never seen anyone push up from here, and I imagine striking or kicking up would be difficult. Even if you connect with an upwards kick, knocking him out even, you may still get bowled over. Correct me you kickers if you've had success this way.

I constantly push my opponents head into the mat in practice, when someone tries a surprise tackle, and this skill was very simple to learn. You don't really need to sprawl too much, but if you don't you have to move around your opponent, which is learned very quickly and instinctively.

If the person comes at you higher, then pushing down will be of no use, but you can get underneath him or move around him. I've found this sort of response harder to learn, because a low charge or leg grab is just that, and nothing more, but a bit higher up and there is a lot more variation, the whole gamut of fighting techniques in fact.

I'd like to see what the strikers and kickers have to say about the tackle. Are any of you allowed to do low tackles in sparring? I think the tackle is one of the most basic types of attack - i.e. heavy, long, force coming straight at you, so the response to this sort of attack should shed a lot of light onto the variations in style.

Thats a pretty good decription of what I see on the tackle. If hes low, controlling pressure on the head down, if he's upward, my arms under the armpit or go low and take him down. The takedown has to be swift and powerful and followed witha quick finish.

 

[James Kovacich]

Whats your favorite techniques and why?

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by akja
From the double hand trap, you can pin both his arms with one hand.

After grabbing both wrists (you have a controlling grip, you're elbows are down), you're left arm (quickly) goes over the top of his right arm and grabbs his left wrist and simultaneously you bring your left elbow into your own ribs.

Your left elbow is essentially trapping his right arm between your elbow and your ribs and your left hand has his left wrist.

Hmm. This sort of happened to me today while sparring.

Now, I know what you mean.

I was straight blasting (jik chun choi) not giving enough forward pressure, and he trapped both my arms with one of his. He then began punching me in the head. Luckaly for me, his trap wasn't that strong, I was able to wiggle up and pull him into a plaum (MT clinch). From there, I threw the requisite knees (simulated, of course - not enough padding).

Fun stuff.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Hmm. This sort of happened to me today while sparring.

Now, I know what you mean.

I was straight blasting (jik chun choi) not giving enough forward pressure, and he trapped both my arms with one of his. He then began punching me in the head. Luckaly for me, his trap wasn't that strong, I was able to wiggle up and pull him into a plaum (MT clinch). From there, I threw the requisite knees (simulated, of course - not enough padding).

Fun stuff.

Something to remember about trapping (and something that is often overlooked by a lot of people) is that trapping isn't intended to hold the person's arms down for any major length of time. Trapping is intended to remove the obstacles between the weapon and target. A good trap will keep the obstacles out of the way long enough to land one or two shots. A lucky trap (or against someone who doesn't understand traps at all) will allow you to land more than a couple of shots.

But, hopefully, the one or two shots you land will be enough to give you the upper hand in the fight. Failing that, you still landed a couple of "freebie" shots and that's never a bad thing.

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Good point. I suppose it was more of a grapple at that point. But it seemed to have started from a trapping structure. He just didn't disengage.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Good point. I suppose it was more of a grapple at that point. But it seemed to have started from a trapping structure. He just didn't disengage.

Sounds like trapping to me

Good trapping won't look like much from the outside. On the receiving side, though, it should feel like you're attacks and defenses are being smothered (at least temporarily).

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Something to remember about trapping (and something that is often overlooked by a lot of people) is that trapping isn't intended to hold the person's arms down for any major length of time. Trapping is intended to remove the obstacles between the weapon and target. A good trap will keep the obstacles out of the way long enough to land one or two shots. A lucky trap (or against someone who doesn't understand traps at all) will allow you to land more than a couple of shots.

But, hopefully, the one or two shots you land will be enough to give you the upper hand in the fight. Failing that, you still landed a couple of "freebie" shots and that's never a bad thing.

Mike

Thats about it. With any trap, you should look to create an opening. Thats why I like the mentality of BJJ so much, they constantly look for an opening and flow from technique to technique. Pretty much what I strive for in all of my art.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Hmm. This sort of happened to me today while sparring.

Now, I know what you mean.

I was straight blasting (jik chun choi) not giving enough forward pressure, and he trapped both my arms with one of his. He then began punching me in the head. Luckaly for me, his trap wasn't that strong, I was able to wiggle up and pull him into a plaum (MT clinch). From there, I threw the requisite knees (simulated, of course - not enough padding).

Fun stuff.

Another thing that I like about it is your trapping hand is on top and in good position to deliver strikes or find another area to take a grip of. After you trap you will look for your finish or better position.