discussion of techniques

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm


Put your self in the picture. Suppose you are holding 2 sharp knives (push daggers would be better suited) in your hands. And now you are going to just treat them simply as extension of your hands. So you will strike (punch and kick) the way you normally would. Do not think in terms of stabbing and cutting or slashing. Just in terms of your bare hand strike and block techniques. Now, don't you think suddenly your lethal power has suddenly gone up 10X. Instead of a punch that hurts, you have a punch that wounds. Instead of blocking your knife hand strikes, your opponent is asking to be filletted. Instead of warding off your kicks, he has to be concerned about your hands that follow.

That's kind of ironic. The first art I ever trained was Kali. That's a bladed weapon art, primarily. So first thing I learned were weapons, stick, sword, knife etc. The empty hand aspect is viewed as an extension of the weapon work. Most if not all of the Kali defenses can be done with a knife, and will work better that way.

For example, that nerve destruction (gunting) I mentioned a while back in the thread to defend against the cross, is really a knife technique. Instead of striking the brachial nerve (or whichever nerve) on the inside of the bicep as I parry, instead I'm slashing there, or the inside forearm to cut the tendons (and arteries) for the disarm. Another example was the upward vertical elbow to outside of the crossing arm. With a knife in icepick hold blade outward, that's really a slash to the forearm.

We worked knife offense, defense (armed and unarmed). In my opinion, arts that seriously train weapons can give you a fighting chance against an knife wielding opponent. I really don't think it's completely hopeless.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Hopeless would be a strong word. But it would be beneficial that people realize what the odds are against them and not foolhardly getting over-confidence in themselves, only to realize the reality too little too late.

Techniques that teach you to defend attacks with knife are NOT worthless.

You asked earlier about what the commonly known knife disarm techniques are. Sorry for not answering this earlier. The commonly taught knife disarm methods usually assume 3 scenarios: 1. An attack by someone using the Regular hold ie "ice-pick" hold, and stabbing from top to bottom. 2. An oriental hold (blade on top, the thumb side vs the pinky finger side), a thrust from the bottom up. 3. A straight stab.

1. Regular hold attack: A X- block or coss hand block; turn and graps the arm; step to the left. Continue to twist the arm downward. Here, there are deviations. Some teaches you to use the attacker's momentum and push the knife into his groin. Others would continue to twist his arm and to disarm the knife.

Experience of the Russians (they practiced on the prisoners from their gulags): YOU MUST KICK to the groin or knee or solar plexus, as you block or immediately right after, before you continue.

Experience of the Israelis (they have to fend off terrorists): If the range is too close, then you are dead. No defense. If you noticed the attack, blocking is the only way to prevent harm. Then block. Immediately execute a counter strike. MUST execute counter strikes. The key to defence against knife attack is the counter strike. Their experience is, most attackers are programmed to stab multiple times. The skilled ones would NOT let you grap his arm at all. He would just deploy it like a spring to execute multiple stabs.

The preferred defense : if the range is there, bend your upper body away, execute side kick or round house to the knee or solar plexus. Another option is front kick to the chin. This of course, the range is there.

2. Oriental hold: Again, if the attack is from close range, and you have no choice, then , execute x-block or inside left arm block . Grap the arm, execute the "Cavalier leverage" ie. Twist it upward, outward and backward. The attacker would fall over. Then you can disarm or attack him with your kicks.

Again, real world experience dictates a kick to the groin or any other vital points is absolutely necessary , preferrable to be executed simultaneously. Also, it may be simply a block, counter strike and then JUMP clear or flee. This isn't heroic. But that is the lesson learned in real life. Even, block and JUMP clear, is necessary.

Preferred defence would be same as in 1. . Another option is move to the leftside as soon as you block (if you have to block) or if the range and timing is there before you block, then you are now away from the side zone, and can attack his side with punches or kicks. This is the Enshin Karate's favourite strategy: move to your side and pound you.

3. Straight stab. Same as in 2.


Noted, this is defence against knife attack. That is, you are NOT in stance, ready for one on one, knife fight. You are basically been ambushed and are not in stance. Actually, it is preferred that you DO NOT get into ready stance. You DO NOT want to tip off the attacker that he is dealing with a pro. B/c then he would use tricks and deceptions. There are also scenarios where you are threatened with a knife. That may or may not make the situation simpler. In any case, this is NOT knife fighting, just defence against knife attacks. Hope I am not overly critical. But most instructors do not realize the critical need for simulatneous counter attack to stop the attacker. Most also would use the same techniques in a knife fight, assuming (incorrectly ) that they would be attacked the same way.

Getting into a one-on-one knife fight, the opponents would use deceptions, tricks and what not, and would not make it that easy for you to use these block and grap routines. You would get filletted if you use these routines carelessly.

 

[Mormegil]

Thanks for the reply on techniques. Very informative.

I can see your point about certain defenses being relatively vulnerable to an experienced knife fighter.



Just on a side note, I thought I would relate what happened to me earlier today. With this long (200+) thread going, I was thinking about the knife defense stuff we were discussing. Now, I posed the knife attack questions, and I didn't really have a good answer myself (or at least one I was vaguely confident in). I did post a possible counter, involving blocking/parrying the upward thrust with the outside of the left forearm, to the inside, and going for a wrist lock to control the weapon.

Well, I wasn't really sure if this technique would even be valid for the knife angle in the scenario (not even worying about an experienced knife fighter). So I asked a friend (NOT a trained knife fighter) to try to stab me with that angle using a rubber training knife. I just wanted to see if the mechanics of the block were valid. As he wasn't feinting, or even retracting for a cut very well, I had no problems blocking the thrust (mechanics valid!). As expected (even with an untrained person), getting control of the knife was a little harder. I got it on his second stab attempt, and went for the lock.

Here I have to agree with Johnathan that pain is necessary for any kind of disarm. Once I applied the wrist lock, he just let go (and kind of fell), before I could even attempt the knife strip. Funny thing is, after simulating a couple of knee strikes, I let him go, and he picked up the knife and "stabbed" me!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

I was in a hurry yesterday. Let me clarify .

I don't necessary favour the X-block (although the military teaches it; not that would mean anything), mainly for the fact that when you get ambushed, the reflexive action is one arm block from the inside out. That also gives you the other hand (right hand, assuming a right-handed attacker) to execute simultaneous or immediately followup counter strike. The counter strike is the key. It stalls the attacker's action through the CNS. Then, you can either jump back, more counter strike, or disarm.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
That's kind of ironic. The first art I ever trained was Kali. That's a bladed weapon art, primarily. So first thing I learned were weapons, stick, sword, knife etc. The empty hand aspect is viewed as an extension of the weapon work. Most if not all of the Kali defenses can be done with a knife, and will work better that way.

For example, that nerve destruction (gunting) I mentioned a while back in the thread to defend against the cross, is really a knife technique. Instead of striking the brachial nerve (or whichever nerve) on the inside of the bicep as I parry, instead I'm slashing there, or the inside forearm to cut the tendons (and arteries) for the disarm. Another example was the upward vertical elbow to outside of the crossing arm. With a knife in icepick hold blade outward, that's really a slash to the forearm.

We worked knife offense, defense (armed and unarmed). In my opinion, arts that seriously train weapons can give you a fighting chance against an knife wielding opponent. I really don't think it's completely hopeless.

You have illustrated how a knife in a trained hand, is a weapon to reckon with. Life is precious. There is no need to piss it away against the odd. Nothing is absolute. But you need to know what you are up against. Remember the saying, " For the guy with a hammer, every problem he sees is a nail"? Don't fall into the trap that MA is gonna solve all problems. lol

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil ..... With a knife in icepick hold blade outward, that's really a slash to the forearm....

Who would want to use trapping against that?

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Who would want to use trapping against that?

I like trapping. It's fun, but you're right. I wouldn't use trapping against a knife wielding opponent. I don't trap that well. I would revert to Kali knife fighting tactics, even if I didn't have a knife, or couldn't get it out in time.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
There is no need to piss it away against the odd. Nothing is absolute. But you need to know what you are up against.

Totally in agreement. Here's another saying from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite (paraphrased): In a knife fight, you only have 1/3 chance of survival. There are 3 scenarios: 1) You are better than your opponent, he dies you live. 2) Your opponent is better than you, you di, he lives. 3) You are about equally matched, you both die.


But still, this is an "academic" discussion of techniques. So I think it's valid to talk about these techniques.

So back to the discussion. Nobody answered my boxer scenario. Here' it is again:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
......Totally in agreement. Here's another saying from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite (paraphrased): In a knife fight, you only have 1/3 chance of survival. There are 3 scenarios: 1) You are better than your opponent, he dies you live. 2) Your opponent is better than you, you di, he lives. 3) You are about equally matched, you both die....

hahahaha... love the 3rd scenario!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
......But still, this is an "academic" discussion of techniques. So I think it's valid to talk about these techniques....

Agreed.

So back to the discussion. Nobody answered my boxer scenario. Here' it is again:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

Jump backward. (JKD's backward blast? )

Ask him WTF his problem was. LOL

If he advanced, roundhouse to his knees. ALWAYS use a hybrid of thrusting and snapping kicks (you don't want to 1. let your leg be grapped, 2, leave an opening for him to move in to counter you. Snap kick. Snap back. Ready for follow up.

Other strike options, hybird sidekick, front kick. Other targets, head, hip, kidney.

Other footwork options: If he advances, and you are left lead, then pull left foot back slightly and diagonally to the left, draw right foot to the left. Now you are ready to pound him from his right side. A cut kick to the back of his (both) legs is nice. So is a right cross to his jaw. Or a left reverse punch to his right kidney.

If you are right lead, move to the right (right foot first) and proceed the same way.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Hopeless would be a strong word. But it would be beneficial that people realize what the odds are against them and not foolhardly getting over-confidence in themselves, only to realize the reality too little too late.

Techniques that teach you to defend attacks with knife are NOT worthless.

You asked earlier about what the commonly known knife disarm techniques are. Sorry for not answering this earlier. The commonly taught knife disarm methods usually assume 3 scenarios: 1. An attack by someone using the Regular hold ie "ice-pick" hold, and stabbing from top to bottom. 2. An oriental hold (blade on top, the thumb side vs the pinky finger side), a thrust from the bottom up. 3. A straight stab.

1. Regular hold attack: A X- block or coss hand block; turn and graps the arm; step to the left. Continue to twist the arm downward. Here, there are deviations. Some teaches you to use the attacker's momentum and push the knife into his groin. Others would continue to twist his arm and to disarm the knife.

Experience of the Russians (they practiced on the prisoners from their gulags): YOU MUST KICK to the groin or knee or solar plexus, as you block or immediately right after, before you continue.

Experience of the Israelis (they have to fend off terrorists): If the range is too close, then you are dead. No defense. If you noticed the attack, blocking is the only way to prevent harm. Then block. Immediately execute a counter strike. MUST execute counter strikes. The key to defence against knife attack is the counter strike. Their experience is, most attackers are programmed to stab multiple times. The skilled ones would NOT let you grap his arm at all. He would just deploy it like a spring to execute multiple stabs.

The preferred defense : if the range is there, bend your upper body away, execute side kick or round house to the knee or solar plexus. Another option is front kick to the chin. This of course, the range is there.

2. Oriental hold: Again, if the attack is from close range, and you have no choice, then , execute x-block or inside left arm block . Grap the arm, execute the "Cavalier leverage" ie. Twist it upward, outward and backward. The attacker would fall over. Then you can disarm or attack him with your kicks.

Again, real world experience dictates a kick to the groin or any other vital points is absolutely necessary , preferrable to be executed simultaneously. Also, it may be simply a block, counter strike and then JUMP clear or flee. This isn't heroic. But that is the lesson learned in real life. Even, block and JUMP clear, is necessary.

Preferred defence would be same as in 1. . Another option is move to the leftside as soon as you block (if you have to block) or if the range and timing is there before you block, then you are now away from the side zone, and can attack his side with punches or kicks. This is the Enshin Karate's favourite strategy: move to your side and pound you.

3. Straight stab. Same as in 2.


Noted, this is defence against knife attack. That is, you are NOT in stance, ready for one on one, knife fight. You are basically been ambushed and are not in stance. Actually, it is preferred that you DO NOT get into ready stance. You DO NOT want to tip off the attacker that he is dealing with a pro. B/c then he would use tricks and deceptions. There are also scenarios where you are threatened with a knife. That may or may not make the situation simpler. In any case, this is NOT knife fighting, just defence against knife attacks. Hope I am not overly critical. But most instructors do not realize the critical need for simulatneous counter attack to stop the attacker. Most also would use the same techniques in a knife fight, assuming (incorrectly ) that they would be attacked the same way.

Getting into a one-on-one knife fight, the opponents would use deceptions, tricks and what not, and would not make it that easy for you to use these block and grap routines. You would get filletted if you use these routines carelessly.

You had all that inside your head and you chose to nitpick me, shame on you. :soapbox:

Speaking for myself. My answers come from the way "I flow", not from the textbook of defense. Realistically an ambush is an ambush. But the discussion is about reactions.

Please help me keep it civilized. I have to admit, I let my head go sometimes, but I've really been trying be like that.

I want to hear how you as well as others react compared to the way I see things.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I like trapping. It's fun, but you're right. I wouldn't use trapping against a knife wielding opponent. I don't trap that well. I would revert to Kali knife fighting tactics, even if I didn't have a knife, or couldn't get it out in time.



Totally in agreement. Here's another saying from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite (paraphrased): In a knife fight, you only have 1/3 chance of survival. There are 3 scenarios: 1) You are better than your opponent, he dies you live. 2) Your opponent is better than you, you di, he lives. 3) You are about equally matched, you both die.


But still, this is an "academic" discussion of techniques. So I think it's valid to talk about these techniques.

So back to the discussion. Nobody answered my boxer scenario. Here' it is again:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

I answered that one with the double hand trap.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
You had all that inside your head and you chose to nitpick me, shame on you. :soapbox:

Speaking for myself. My answers come from the way "I flow", not from the textbook of defense. Realistically an ambush is an ambush. But the discussion is about reactions.

Please help me keep it civilized. I have to admit, I let my head go sometimes, but I've really been trying be like that.

I want to hear how you as well as others react compared to the way I see things.

lol Care to tell me what the heck you are trying to say there?

 

[Mormegil]

If I was going against a boxer, especially one who got on the inside, I would probably favor knees and elbows.

If he uppercuts, I would catch the uppercut while I lean back and deliver a thrusting knee ("TANG!!!" for all you MT guys).

Stepping down, I would probably throw a few diagonal downward elbows, and go for the plaum (sp?), MT style clinch, with my forearms pincering his neck, where I can continue to throw knees.


Alternatively, I might do some Silat throw - either an outside front sweep (sapu luar), after grabbing his opposite shoulder and twisting, or shoot in deep for a Kenjit Siko, or elbow compression, which I think was described earlier.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
If I was going against a boxer, especially one who got on the inside, I would probably favor knees and elbows.

If he uppercuts, I would catch the uppercut while I lean back and deliver a thrusting knee ("TANG!!!" for all you MT guys).

Stepping down, I would probably throw a few diagonal downward elbows, and go for the plaum (sp?), MT style clinch, with my forearms pincering his neck, where I can continue to throw knees.


Alternatively, I might do some Silat throw - either an outside front sweep (sapu luar), after grabbing his opposite shoulder and twisting, or shoot in deep for a Kenjit Siko, or elbow compression, which I think was described earlier.

From the double hand trap, you can pin both his arms with one hand.

After grabbing both wrists (you have a controlling grip, you're elbows are down), you're left arm (quickly) goes over the top of his right arm and grabbs his left wrist and simultaneously you bring your left elbow into your own ribs.

Your left elbow is essentially trapping his right arm between your elbow and your ribs and your left hand has his left wrist.

Your right hand immediately goes straight to the eyejab. Follow the eyejab with any number of strikes and you can after the eyejab , grab his right wrist with your right hand (same technique on with your other hand), bring in your right elbow to your ribs trapping his left arm with your right elbow and you have his right wrist trapped as well and you can deliver your left punch.

In theory you can go from trap and strike to trap and strike repeatedly.

This is also a variation for when someone tries to grab you.

 

[Mormegil]

Interesting. I never thought of trapping them to your own ribs. I usually think of trapping / jamming them to their own ribs.

Might this technique be a problem if they try to counter by using your pulling energy and running into you with a shoulder or body check? That's a counter against lop sao I've seen. I'm not invalidating this technique, just posing a question - after all, for every technique, there is a counter, and a counter-counter...

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Interesting. I never thought of trapping them to your own ribs. I usually think of trapping / jamming them to their own ribs.

Might this technique be a problem if they try to counter by using your pulling energy and running into you with a shoulder or body check? That's a counter against lop sao I've seen. I'm not invalidating this technique, just posing a question - after all, for every technique, there is a counter, and a counter-counter...

It would be most effective in a situation like you are "squaring off" or he is attempting to grab you, no excessive energy in either direction. You are facing eachother.

You need to try it, when you trap his arm in your ribs, his arm will bend and your forearm will be holding his arm near his elbow. It would be a good technique in close to enable yourself a quick eyejab which will lead to better strikes.

My opinion of someone running at you, prepare for the groundwork. There are techniques to prevent going down but its equally important that if you go to the ground is that end up in a good position.

 

[James Kovacich]

ITS TIME FOR A NEW SCENARIO. ANY TAKERS?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by akja
ITS TIME FOR A NEW SCENARIO. ANY TAKERS?

OK, here we go. I want to hear your defenses for a single or double leg takedown or both and a football type tackle.

Many of our peers, including one of my instructors don't practice grappling because they have techniques that will prevent them from being taken down. So there should be a good pool of defense techniques out there.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
OK, here we go. I want to hear your defenses for a single or double leg takedown or both and a football type tackle.

Many of our peers, including one of my instructors don't practice grappling because they have techniques that will prevent them from being taken down. So there should be a good pool of defense techniques out there.

I assume your big smiley face is because you know better than to think anyone can do anything to guarantee that they won't end up on the ground (takend down or otherwise).

The standard sprawl is good. Unfortunately, it's also "standard" and most groundfighters have a good repertoire of tools to counter the sprawl. But it's still a good tool.

Also, as a sidenote (and something you're probably aware of, just a pet peeve of mine), "grappling" and "groundfighting" are two different things "Grappling" can be done standing, kneeling, lying, floating, or flying (never know when you might get in a fight in a swimming pool or during freefall ). "Groundfighting" means fighting on the ground and might include grappling, but can also include striking, weapons, etc.

Anyway ... to your actual question:

I'll again address this from a kind of stylistic perspective (these responses all have as much to do with my mood at the moment as they do with the specific arts/systems that I study).

Kali (if the player has doesn't have time to draw his blade): sprawl and start slamming elbows into available targets (targets may vary depending on circumstances) like side and back of head, neck, spine.

Silat: underhook the lead arm and lift while slamming other hand into the back of his head to do a "puter kepala" (head turning throw) - what Judo and Aikido would call a "kaiten nage"

Kuntao Silat: drop down and roll forward into and through his legs

Shen Chuan: sidestep toward leading arm, slap leading arm down, drop a "burning elbow" through the guy's ribs ("burning punch" is an elbow that trenches the surface instead of slamming), after the burning elbow, uppercut into his groin and sweep his leg with your arm, then head for the house.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
I assume your big smiley face is because you know better than to think anyone can do anything to guarantee that they won't end up on the ground (takend down or otherwise).

The standard sprawl is good. Unfortunately, it's also "standard" and most groundfighters have a good repertoire of tools to counter the sprawl. But it's still a good tool.

Also, as a sidenote (and something you're probably aware of, just a pet peeve of mine), "grappling" and "groundfighting" are two different things "Grappling" can be done standing, kneeling, lying, floating, or flying (never know when you might get in a fight in a swimming pool or during freefall ). "Groundfighting" means fighting on the ground and might include grappling, but can also include striking, weapons, etc.

Anyway ... to your actual question:

I'll again address this from a kind of stylistic perspective (these responses all have as much to do with my mood at the moment as they do with the specific arts/systems that I study).

Kali (if the player has doesn't have time to draw his blade): sprawl and start slamming elbows into available targets (targets may vary depending on circumstances) like side and back of head, neck, spine.

Silat: underhook the lead arm and lift while slamming other hand into the back of his head to do a "puter kepala" (head turning throw) - what Judo and Aikido would call a "kaiten nage"

Kuntao Silat: drop down and roll forward into and through his legs

Shen Chuan: sidestep toward leading arm, slap leading arm down, drop a "burning elbow" through the guy's ribs ("burning punch" is an elbow that trenches the surface instead of slamming), after the burning elbow, uppercut into his groin and sweep his leg with your arm, then head for the house.

Mike

Your right, I do know the differance but neglected to use the word groundfighting.

Actually, I used the big smiley face because even though I didn't see it back when I was my instructors student. Today I use "variations" of his takedown defenses. Meaning I evolved like a circle, I set out on my own path and came back around to what he was saying in the first place. Just slightly differant from my interpetation of the tasks at hand.

But in the same breath, I came to have faith in my technique by putting those years on the mat in BJJ fixing my weaknesses.

I like the sprawl, it just happens without thinking like an immediate defense reaction. But I'd prefer to keep my base and control the assailants head, either at the back of the neck or a combination of the back of the neck and the sides of the head.

Also one hand behind the neck and one hand below the nose but above the lips. This can be painfull, you push up on the nose and and he will put his head back and with your other hand on the back of his neck you can guide him where you want him.

You can also use your that same hand is at the nose to strike.

I left out the exact fininsh on purpose. It can vary so much and I really don't know what I will "feel" at the moment. But after more comments come in I will relate from my view.:asian: