discussion of techniques

[sweeper]

If you say that the JKD folks are up to date and can prevail over kick attacks from these folks, I will have to take your words for it. No point in arguing otherwise. However, I wouldn't be that cavalier as to think any less of any other martial arts. HA! You see, Bruce Lee's concept of " Do not judge, but learn from all art" is been universally adopted (or bastardized ) by people outside of JKD.

Yeah it is hard for either of us to argue because I don't think either of us have had a ton of experience with the respective groups we aretalking about, what seems like it wouldn't work to one of us might work just fine it's just we havn't practiced it enough. For example I'm not sure how you are differentiating between american kickboxing and mauy thai. As I said I don't practice mauy thai so I can't realy pick up on sutalties in the art (or what apear as such to me). If you could elaborate on that a little it could help me out some (I'm assumming you are tlaking about the diffrence between a fighter like maurice smith,who tends to use his hands well rather than someone who "kicks 99% of the time" ?

as to the question.

If I were to respond to the first punch in a manner that represented how I would fight I would either drop out on a diagonal or go forward to the right. I would (if I'm in an optimal position) be fighting southpaw so I want to fight like a southpaw, I would look to get my lead (right) foot outside is lead (left) foot and box him from there. As it isn't boxing of course that means I have to get my lead leg in closer to his so I can shut it down, so I would try to jam the cross and step right and either jab rightor hook right depending on what his lead does (I would actualy probably end up fienting a jab than hooking as this seems to be a favorite for me). Basicly I'm gona try to get within the optimal arch of a round kick, because I'm to the right it's harder to hit me with his right side kick, I'm assumming that A would hit me with a right thrust kick to the chest. And knowing me I would get hit and get pushed back.

Now if I was in an orthodox lead I would probably respond to a cross (if I read cross, wich means hip movement) with a jab to cut off the angle (throw the attck either on an intercepting angle or to their head to cut the power) wich means closing on them, I would then probably see the round kick and try to knee/shin shield like you suggested, and open up for the side thrust, if I was hast enough I would probably snap out my right and drop back out to the left, but most likely I would be step back and tuck as the kick came and try to pary it to the side.

genneraly when something happens like this (get caught in a trap) I try to get out of the battle, so I try to either evade going back or side to side or I clinch.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I used to give instant credibility to anyone from Kyokushin. (Not that I don't give any to Sifu Starr). That was when I was young and ignorant. lol. Kyokushin used to produce first rate fighters. But like most organizations that look inward, it has gone down hill and splintered and what not. Besides, what used to make Kyokushin folks powerful, is no longer exclusively Kyokushin anymore. Almost all other arts have discovered the "secrets" independently.

True, but I know my teacher trained in Kyokushin back in the 60s - 70s, when being Kyokushin meant regular ***-beatings disguised as dojo training... :lol:

As I have stated long before my arugment with the Yili folks,

We had an argument? When? I know we were debating some issues about crime in Asia, but wasn't aware there were any hard feelings on either end...

I definitely would love to observe Yili first hand and would be honored to train with the Yili folks.

I could understand your desire to watch Yili, but why would you be "honored" to train with us? We are no more special than anyone else that trains hard and tries to understand their art. We are just a bunch of regular guys that think beating the piss out of each other is a neat way to say "hi."

But, if you are ever up this way, feel free to drop in. We welcome any idiots to join us in the collective ***-beatings... :lol:

(*NOT saying that John is an idiot - just that I feel that way about myself every time I limp back to my car after training, wondering what it is I get out of having my *** handed to me so regularly...*)

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Oh yeah, by the way...

In Yili, we don't block kicks... That's a dumb thing to do. So the "official" doctrine is don't "block" them or otherwise directly oppose them. Move closer to negate their effectiveness, move further away to eliminate the possibility of their landing. Move to an outside quarter to take yourself out of his "target area" thereby making him unable to kick you at all (if you are standing next to him he better be a circus performer if he is going to get a kick to land! ).

But we wouldn't stand there and drop a low block or summink onto an incoming leg... Bad mojo in trying to do that.

All of that having been said, some of us psychos aren't against the idea of attacking the leg, kicking the kick or punching the kicking leg. But, as implied by calling us "psychos," it's a dangerous proposition at best.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Back to techniques.

How do you counter this attack:

A is in orthodox, ie Nouth-Paw on guard. You are B. A initiates an attack in 3 stages. Of course, you would only see one at a time.

1. A throws a cross ie right-hand punch. A brings his rear leg forward at the same time.

2. As you expect to counter the punch, you discover that is a feint. (A snap that is withdrawn instantaneously)The real attack is the right leg that A was bringing forward and now is turning into a rising kick (unchamberred).

3. As you immediately ready to check kick /stop kick that right leg from A, A brings it back , chambers it to deliver a side piecing kick to your head or chest. OR is he chamberring to deliver a roundhouse? Is he aiming for the ribs or the head or the solar plexus?

It dosen't matter what the target is. Too many feints, thus too much wasted time and movement. By the time A "brings back his leg" (feint), B has plowed him over with a single or double leg takedown AND issued a serious "ground and pound!"

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Made perfect sense to me. I'd actually say that the point of this thread (and whoever started it would really be the one to answer this) was to get an idea of how people in other systems might respond to a given situation. To get a small taste of the flavors other systems have to offer.

That's why I've tried to keep my responses very stylistic. To try to give the questioner a small taste of the style. Of course, in this medium, it's very difficult to accomplish. But I think that was the point of this thread and, overall, I think it's managed it well

Mike

You got it! Just constructive interpetations and strategys from differant arts on their views and differances to the application of techniques. Thats what I had in mind.

It is my point of view that no one art will right or wrong but "all" will be right for "their" application.:asian:

 

[sweeper]

if you are standing next to him he better be a circus performer if he is going to get a kick to land!

hmm.. there's this TKD I practice with, he does TKD and JKD, he has kicked me in the head when we are boxing, not close like a clinch but pritty close.. bugs the hell out of me

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by akja
It dosen't matter what the target is. Too many feints, thus too much wasted time and movement. By the time A "brings back his leg" (feint), B has plowed him over with a single or double leg takedown AND issued a serious "ground and pound!"

How about we start out with the same right rear punch from a conventional stance. It also is a feint. But only one feint, quickly followed with a successful left jab.

How will you finish?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

We had an argument? When? I know we were debating some issues about crime in Asia, but wasn't aware there were any hard feelings on either end...

No hard feeling at all. Lol. The only argument was you folks insisted that I have made certain assumption about your "activities" in bars. lol As for Yilisifu anf Chufeng thinking that my life story was Indiana-Jones like, I kind of actually felt flattered, as I really thought it was pretty boring and mundane as it was. Little did I know that to other folks, it was actually that extreme.

I could understand your desire to watch Yili, but why would you be "honored" to train with us? We are no more special than anyone else that trains hard and tries to understand their art. We are just a bunch of regular guys that think beating the piss out of each other is a neat way to say "hi."

But, if you are ever up this way, feel free to drop in. We welcome any idiots to join us in the collective ***-beatings... :lol:

It is always an honor to be invited over.

Besides, with Mr Starr being a Kyokushin BB, makes a strong case that he wouldn't have swap what is essentially an effective MA for Yilli if Yilli has no value.

However, you folks are more than 1500 miles a way. So it will have to wait. But I do look forward to visiting.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
How about we start out with the same right rear punch from a conventional stance. It also is a feint. But only one feint, quickly followed with a successful left jab.

How will you finish?

If it is a duel, I would be in my usual south paw stance or north paw stance, doesn't matter.

Side kick to the leg. It is a hybrid of thrust and snap kick. Hit or miss, doesn't matter. Rechamber without setting the foot down, side kick to the mid section. Or I might go with simple single direct side kick to the midsection, if he leans/lunge.

If he caught me by surprise and I am facing him, one of my leg is on a rising, snap kick to his chest, or head, depending on if he moves forward or not.

Needless to say, my upper body will bend backward to get out of range at the same time.

OR

Assuming in north paw stance, I slide (left foot step forward to 11o'clock, pivot on ball of left foot then swing right foot to the left) to my left (his right) and roundhouse kick him in the back of his kidney or cutting his legs from behind or knifehand his neck or straight punches to the right of his head.

This circular movement to the attacker's sideway is nothing more than footwork.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If it is a duel, I would be in my usual south paw stance or north paw stance, doesn't matter.

Side kick to the leg. It is a hybrid of thrust and snap kick. Hit or miss, doesn't matter. Rechamber without setting the foot down, side kick to the mid section. Or I might go with simple single direct side kick to the midsection, if he leans/lunge.

If he caught me by surprise and I am facing him, one of my leg is on a rising, snap kick to his chest, or head, depending on if he moves forward or not.

Needless to say, my upper body will bend backward to get out of range at the same time.

OR

Assuming in north paw stance, I slide (left foot step forward to 11o'clock, pivot on ball of left foot then swing right foot to the left) to my left (his right) and roundhouse kick him in the back of his kidney or cutting his legs from behind or knifehand his neck or straight punches to the right of his head.

This circular movement to the attacker's sideway is nothing more than footwork.

I use both stances also but assuming that we are in conventional stances and I feint with the right and deliver a successful left jab.

I have the oppurtunity to finish with a right horizontal elbow or a right cross. Depending on how my (right) strike affects their movement, I'm going to go through my opponent. If he's slightly stunned I may choose to just chop him down by attacking the legs and then going high with my hands. But it would be just as fast to follow up the right with a takedown finishing with a break, all depending on what he gives me.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
hmm.. there's this TKD I practice with, he does TKD and JKD, he has kicked me in the head when we are boxing, not close like a clinch but pritty close.. bugs the hell out of me

If he's a high kicker, try using your knees to lower your body without hunching over. As you lower your body, you move in. Your head is out of harms way and your in position to take him down. If he's on one leg its even easier to take him down.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Back to techniques.

How do you counter this attack:

A is in orthodox, ie Nouth-Paw on guard. You are B. A initiates an attack in 3 stages. Of course, you would only see one at a time.

1. A throws a cross ie right-hand punch. A brings his rear leg forward at the same time.

2. As you expect to counter the punch, you discover that is a feint. (A snap that is withdrawn instantaneously)The real attack is the right leg that A was bringing forward and now is turning into a rising kick (unchamberred).

3. As you immediately ready to check kick /stop kick that right leg from A, A brings it back , chambers it to deliver a side piecing kick to your head or chest. OR is he chamberring to deliver a roundhouse? Is he aiming for the ribs or the head or the solar plexus?

"too many feints" may not necessarily be a bad thing. But in this case, if he goes continues, I think I would probably have gotten in between 2 & 3.

So at 1) I would slip outside, with a split entry attempt, with a nerve shot to the inside right arm. But, before I connect, they've withdrawn, and slide their right leg up for an apparent rising kick. I would continue my right hand forward for the punch to the face (striking into emptiness), and lower my left hand to jam the rising foot with my palm, while stepping forward with my right foot. At this range, they would have to step back to be able to kick me, as I'm in the way of a front chamber. If I've connected with the right punch, I'm thinking, go with the chain punch, since my left hand is down. Three or 4 rapid vertical fist punches as I continue forward into my opponent. Follow up depends on where they end up.


Here are my questions


#1
A crazy wild eyed, obviously untrained attacker is running at you weilding a kitchen knife. He has in his right hand, icepick hold, blade towards him - single edged kitchen knife

He's RAPIDLY thrusting it up and down (3-4 "stabs" a second) in a vertical motion towards the neck or collarbone area, if your were in front of him already. The motion hinges at the elbow, and is relatively non-commital (ie, their shoulder isn't turning with the strike, just the elbow bending). His left arm is just flailing back and forth to his left as he runs at you.

Assuming you can't run, what do you do?




#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

 

[sweeper]

well the problem is more that he doesn't throw alot of high kicks. In fact he didn't realy throw any untill my instructor saw me leaving openings he told him to start kicking me in the head. I have gotten alot better about it, but some times when I'm in what apears to be close, I'll throw a somewhat heavy handed punch and he'll sink back and kick me in the head.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
well the problem is more that he doesn't throw alot of high kicks. In fact he didn't realy throw any untill my instructor saw me leaving openings he told him to start kicking me in the head. I have gotten alot better about it, but some times when I'm in what apears to be close, I'll throw a somewhat heavy handed punch and he'll sink back and kick me in the head.

Its pretty natural for your instructor to know "what you have."

For your situation I think its just a matter of protecting your head. When I train with guys from differant styles I sometimes take a while to figure them out and go through exactly what you described.

As far as going in on your attacker (the kicker) its still a good strategy but like with any technique your head needs to be protected. For me, I'm just way more comfortable going forward and thats why you will hear a lot of that from me.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
"too many feints" may not necessarily be a bad thing. But in this case, if he goes continues, I think I would probably have gotten in between 2 & 3.

So at 1) I would slip outside, with a split entry attempt, with a nerve shot to the inside right arm. But, before I connect, they've withdrawn, and slide their right leg up for an apparent rising kick. I would continue my right hand forward for the punch to the face (striking into emptiness), and lower my left hand to jam the rising foot with my palm, while stepping forward with my right foot. At this range, they would have to step back to be able to kick me, as I'm in the way of a front chamber. If I've connected with the right punch, I'm thinking, go with the chain punch, since my left hand is down. Three or 4 rapid vertical fist punches as I continue forward into my opponent. Follow up depends on where they end up.


Here are my questions


#1
A crazy wild eyed, obviously untrained attacker is running at you weilding a kitchen knife. He has in his right hand, icepick hold, blade towards him - single edged kitchen knife

He's RAPIDLY thrusting it up and down (3-4 "stabs" a second) in a vertical motion towards the neck or collarbone area, if your were in front of him already. The motion hinges at the elbow, and is relatively non-commital (ie, their shoulder isn't turning with the strike, just the elbow bending). His left arm is just flailing back and forth to his left as he runs at you.

Assuming you can't run, what do you do?




#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

You're right too many feints is not all bad. But to lead off with all the feints is a little risky. In the middle of exchanging, attack by combination of feights and techniques definately has its place.

Later tonite I'll try and answer your scenario.:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
"too many feints" may not necessarily be a bad thing. But in this case, if he goes continues, I think I would probably have gotten in between 2 & 3.

So at 1) I would slip outside, with a split entry attempt, with a nerve shot to the inside right arm. But, before I connect, they've withdrawn, and slide their right leg up for an apparent rising kick. I would continue my right hand forward for the punch to the face (striking into emptiness), and lower my left hand to jam the rising foot with my palm, while stepping forward with my right foot. At this range, they would have to step back to be able to kick me, as I'm in the way of a front chamber. If I've connected with the right punch, I'm thinking, go with the chain punch, since my left hand is down. Three or 4 rapid vertical fist punches as I continue forward into my opponent. Follow up depends on where they end up.


Here are my questions


#1
A crazy wild eyed, obviously untrained attacker is running at you weilding a kitchen knife. He has in his right hand, icepick hold, blade towards him - single edged kitchen knife

He's RAPIDLY thrusting it up and down (3-4 "stabs" a second) in a vertical motion towards the neck or collarbone area, if your were in front of him already. The motion hinges at the elbow, and is relatively non-commital (ie, their shoulder isn't turning with the strike, just the elbow bending). His left arm is just flailing back and forth to his left as he runs at you.

Assuming you can't run, what do you do?




#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

For both techniques I'm assuming that I can get into a southpaw stance where I'm most comfortable to react from.

#1) Theres little time and his left hand isn't doing anything. I hardly use a cross block for the knife defense I will use it. When I cross block my left wrist is on top of my right wrist.

My left wrist grabs hist right wrist (my thumb is facing down), and my right moves around the inside of his arm and bck inside to grab my left wrist with my right hand( figure4 his arm), and put pressure backwards and down and disarm him and finish with something appropriate.

#2) This time his left hand is in a fight position but he's not rushing me. I'll use the same cross block but this time my left hand will grab his right wrist on the bottom (my thumb is up) and Simulataneously my right hand come accross and grabs his right hand ( I grab an his back hand and my thumb is at his thumb and my fingers overlap his hand to his palm). I can throw a knee or groin kick here too if my feet are in position.

Now I twist his wrist and bring his arm back accross my chest to my right side while I step back with my foot and I step through with my left foot ( My back is facing him), and his arm is now under my shoulder and straightened out. I continue to take him down and disarm and submit hit.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
You got it! Just constructive interpetations and strategys from differant arts on their views and differances to the application of techniques. Thats what I had in mind.

It is my point of view that no one art will right or wrong but "all" will be right for "their" application.:asian:

Talking "what and how" on paper is just to expose to different options. There is no point in arguing whether one's timing is better than the other person. The only productive thing you can get out, is to see how others may counter an attack that is different from yours. And hopefully, your knowledge base expand as a result.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
"too many feints" may not necessarily be a bad thing. But in this case, if he goes continues, I think I would probably have gotten in between 2 & 3.

So at 1) I would slip outside, with a split entry attempt, with a nerve shot to the inside right arm. But, before I connect, they've withdrawn, and slide their right leg up for an apparent rising kick. I would continue my right hand forward for the punch to the face (striking into emptiness), and lower my left hand to jam the rising foot with my palm, while stepping forward with my right foot. At this range, they would have to step back to be able to kick me, as I'm in the way of a front chamber. If I've connected with the right punch, I'm thinking, go with the chain punch, since my left hand is down. Three or 4 rapid vertical fist punches as I continue forward into my opponent. Follow up depends on where they end up.

Yes. Jamming (by moving in close)A when he rechambers would stall his attack. Common tactic to stall a kick. Tricky timing though, as always.

One of the techniques is to drop down to do a sweep of the attacker's standing leg.

Here are my questions


#1
A crazy wild eyed, obviously untrained attacker is running at you weilding a kitchen knife. He has in his right hand, icepick hold, blade towards him - single edged kitchen knife

He's RAPIDLY thrusting it up and down (3-4 "stabs" a second) in a vertical motion towards the neck or collarbone area, if your were in front of him already. The motion hinges at the elbow, and is relatively non-commital (ie, their shoulder isn't turning with the strike, just the elbow bending). His left arm is just flailing back and forth to his left as he runs at you.

Assuming you can't run, what do you do?

A. South paw or north paw. Stay out of range. Lean upperbody away. Move in. Roundhouse or side kick, to the knee.

B. Take off your belt (if you have one) and use the belt knuckle to smack at his face to stun/distract him. You can use your jacket or purse too. Then you can attack his lower limbs or other targets of opportunity.

C. If you carry a can of pepper spray, it is time to use it. It does not have to disable him. Just impair him is sufficient. Pepper spray is inflammatory and causes inflammation at the mucous membrane, thus reduces his air intake to bare minimum and shuts off his eyes. Be sure you get the law enforcement version, not the K Mart version.

#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

Got to go. Will answer this later.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Talking "what and how" on paper is just to expose to different options. There is no point in arguing whether one's timing is better than the other person. The only productive thing you can get out, is to see how others may counter an attack that is different from yours. And hopefully, your knowledge base expand as a result.

Thats exactly my intention. My "views" on a lot of martial arts has changed after seeing them in a differant light!

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil





#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

For #2 from a south paw, a half step shuffle back avoiding the knife and a full step shuffle forward and a low JKD (with my upper body leaning back) side kick to the knee. Front or rear knee, whichever is in position for me to take.

Then proceed with one of my other examples to disarm.