discussion of techniques

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Disarm? In knife fight, the first rule is DISENGAGE. Your best shot at coming out alive is to cripple him and HAUL ***! (not necessary in that order!) lol

It is a matter of opinion, but using T JJ in a knife fight, is the quickest way to the morque. Any one who holds a knife already know how NOT to get grapped.

Just think about it. If you were to use a knife, are you NOT well aware of all the block and grap disarming techniques? Are you not going to slash and cut and kick and punch as well? ie blending the knife as if it is just part of your hands and legs? Or are you going to make the usual mistake of taking a big jab? Are you not going to becareful that you don't let that knife hand been intercepted and the knife taken away from you?

So what makes you think the thugs and criminals who practice daily among themselves to win fights DON'T already know all the block and grap techniques? Most MA guys have this hallucination that the criminals are big fat and lazy. That just aint the reality. The criminals study and practice real fighting daily too. Yes, they practice knife fighting daily to harden themselves. That is why I always LMAO as the McDojo sifus pretending they can really hack it in the real world.

This is not a question of difference in timing and execution, which there is no point to argue about. This is about whether the defence is realistic or not.

Thugs and criminals do not practice daily how to fight and and fat chance they know all the blocks.

All we are doing is throwing differant flavors out there for differant situations. This is a Martial Talk Discussion Forum. There are other forums out there that are supposed to "martial art" forums but they spend their time saying MA don't work.

Theres nothing to be gained from that.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Several points:
1. Don't get into a knife fight. (Duh! Obviously!) You will get slashed. And getting cut is one of the worst sensation in life. Ranks right upthere as feeling your car being crashed while you are sitting in there. Errrr...

2. If you have no option, the most effective way is, whether you grap or not, you must accompany your block, parry, or grap, or evasion with a STRIKE to the vital/weak points (groin, knees, solar plexus, throat, eyes etc). The dumbest thing is to assume you can arm wrestle the cold blade away with your jutjitsu ( sorry akja, )

If people don't care to listen to criticism of techniques, fine with me. I won't post then.

You don't understand Ju Jitsu or you've never seen anybody that was good enough at it which is the same for all arts. If you paid attention to my FIRST knife disarm post, I stated that while grabbing his right wrist with your left hand you can use your right hand to attack his right bicep. If you've ever been attacked in your bicep or seen it practiced you would know that alone may be enough to disarm the attacker.

Was that a good enough strike for you?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Aw shucks, I just call 'em likes I sees 'em

But, yeah, I think my diverse background has helped me a lot. Specifically, though, my approach to the diversity has helped. Rather than looking for the differences (which are easy to find), I look for the similarities. In doing so, I gain not only more breadth, but more depth at the same time.

I learn to spot the underlying concepts and principles that they share instead of focusing on what they do differently.

I think this is one of the common pitfalls that people encounter when cross training.

Mike

Johnathan Napalm, TAKE NOTE. You need to memorize that post! Its got you written all over it!

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is why I always LMAO as the McDojo sifus pretending they can really hack it in the real world.

This is not a question of difference in timing and execution, which there is no point to argue about. This is about whether the defence is realistic or not.

Just who are these MCDOJOS your talking about?

You know I must of jinxed myself. I made a comment on another thread that we went 10 pages in here without bickering. Then here comes JN talking about MA don't work.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
If I'm not mistaken, a knife fighter will have to stick his arm out at some point to score a hit/cut (assuming he doesn't simply throw the knife at you). I'm not saying he will keep it flailing out there, but to put a knife into you, he will have to use his arm.

I know it's very, very difficult to get the disarm, and I really doubt I could get it on the first or second strike (or third) especially the one I described. You can only do the disarm, when the disarm "presents itself."

Mainly, I was talking about parrying the strike, and an "ideal" disarm. I have not been in a knife fight. But from my limited knife sparring experience, I think I can parry a knife thrust some of the time. The way you make it sound, it's completely hopeless, and I should just go and present my belly to be slashed.

Perhaps criticisms of individual techniques should be kept to personal messages.

I think you see things right. To disarm a knife attack is not only dangerous but something that needs to be mastered to make work. The same could be said about Muy Thai. what chance would a REAL Thai fighter have against a REAL fighter out of the Inosanto school.

I am assuming that the 2 fighters would be considered equal (same age, same weight,same amount of years training).

Lets see the Thai fighter has a few skills, but its all Thai, thus being held back by the limatations of one style. On the other hand a fighter from the Inosanto Academy has the oppurtunity to learn JKD, BJJ, Kali, Silat, Shootwrestling and probably about 10 or 15 more arts AND Muy Thai. Thus an example of "having no limitations as limitation, using no way as way". The Thai fighter would be neutralized and destroyed.

There are many things that I see when it comes to my way "offense is defense and defense id offense". But you throw a knife into the picture and throws out the window many techniques. But not all of them and thats what is important. People that say that won't work, just can't see it in their mind, so it must not work , if they can't see it in their mind, then they themselves are the ones that can't fight.

Back to where I WAS headed with this. In Ju Jitsu its common to block in an arking motion, like a half circle. you know like the wax on, wax off. Its a "catch all" block. Theres nothing to master and it works.

Picture your self in any stance left lead or right lead and the attacker is in the conventional left lead. So he throws a powerful right cross. Do you block, parry, intercept?

A Ju Jitsu player only needs to tie that arm up. The circular block would go from the inside of the attackers punching arm and go over it and all the way around and back under his arm trapping his arm under your armpit. It stops the punch (the immediate threat) and you now have an arm to lock, crank or whatever, your choice. Just tying up the arm with your left arm will leave your right arm free to attack.

I mentioned that technique because I like to train like that. But that same technique could be my defeat if he had a knife in that arm that I trapped under my armpit.

Thats why we are in here talking about these scenarios. To see what works and when and where and how.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Johnathan Napalm, TAKE NOTE. You need to memorize that post! Its got you written all over it!

Don't drag me into this

I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone. It's just a common thing I see everywhere

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

I was working the heavy bag at my college gym, and on one of the other bags was a boxer. We had an interesting discussion about on guard positions, covering up and such. He had a lot more experience than me - fighting for several years, while I've been sparring for a month.

He made some suggestions to me concerning my guard, that it was too open, compared to his compact infighter's boxing guard. After thinking it through, I realized lots of weaknesses to his guard open to non-boxer types (open to low line kicks, knees, elbows, throws etc.).

It got me thinking...scenario for this thread:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
Thugs and criminals do not practice daily how to fight and and fat chance they know all the blocks....

Good lord, Isweated a cold sweat reading this post of yours. Please say it ain't so. You have no idea about life on the street, my friend...

What do they say about "Underestimating your opponents" ?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
You don't understand Ju Jitsu or you've never seen anybody that was good enough at it which is the same for all arts. If you paid attention to my FIRST knife disarm post, I stated that while grabbing his right wrist with your left hand you can use your right hand to attack his right bicep. If you've ever been attacked in your bicep or seen it practiced you would know that alone may be enough to disarm the attacker.

Was that a good enough strike for you?

Question, what's the difference between a knife fight and defence against a knife attack?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
Just who are these MCDOJOS your talking about?

You know I must of jinxed myself. I made a comment on another thread that we went 10 pages in here without bickering. Then here comes JN talking about MA don't work.

I see that whenever I pointed out the flaw in certain technique in reference to the presumed attack being unrealistic, I was taken as stating that MA does not work.

To clarify, MA works, provided that you train realistically. If you use defence techniques against knife attack to engage in a knife fight against trained knife fighter, then it won't work.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
I understand exactly your point of view but if you don't stop the attacking arm, then your dead. It makes more sense to train.

Also learning the techniques "the long way" is a part of the learning process. If you only learn the shortcuts to everything, then your art is going to suck.

Its up to "us" as individual martial artist to make "our" arts work for us.

The techniques are not flawed. What you don't see is that in reality, we don't know how or which way the fight will go. But if you are limited to say Muy Thai, then you will lose because Muy Thai is not well rounded. My art is similar to JKD but by definition, it is not. But the reactions of a JKD player is what will save your life and thats the way I practice and teach.

If you want to grow as amartial artist, there is no getting around learning the techniques the "long way".

If you don't have faith in the MA that much you should go to this forum, you'll fit right in.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/

I have never mentioned Muay Thai as the best choice of art (there is no such thing as just ONE BEST CHOICE), let alone for defence against knife attack. In any case, it is my fault to have pissed on TJJ in the first place. For that, I am sorry. lol So I am not going to rebutt your lecture here.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If you use defence techniques against knife attack to engage in a knife fight against trained knife fighter, then it won't work.

What if you're a trained knife fighter without your knife?

I have to believe that something will work. It sounds so absolute the way you put it.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Good lord, Isweated a cold sweat reading this post of yours. Please say it ain't so. You have no idea about life on the street, my friend

Been there, done that.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I was working the heavy bag at my college gym, and on one of the other bags was a boxer. We had an interesting discussion about on guard positions, covering up and such. He had a lot more experience than me - fighting for several years, while I've been sparring for a month.

He made some suggestions to me concerning my guard, that it was too open, compared to his compact infighter's boxing guard. After thinking it through, I realized lots of weaknesses to his guard open to non-boxer types (open to low line kicks, knees, elbows, throws etc.).

It got me thinking...scenario for this thread:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

Double hand trap. You grab his wrists (on the the outside), your fingers and thumb go from the outside of the wrist and over the top to the inside. Your just reaching out straight and grabbing both wrists, your hands are better position because they are both on top. You can strike or whatever you like.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I have never mentioned Muay Thai as the best choice of art (there is no such thing as just ONE BEST CHOICE), let alone for defence against knife attack. In any case, it is my fault to have pissed on TJJ in the first place. For that, I am sorry. lol So I am not going to rebutt your lecture here.

I used Thai (I new you could relate to Thai) as an example so that you would realize that all arts have weaknesses. I have more experience in BJJ but now I'm learning TJJ. The two ats go well together. They both have what the other lacks.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I see that whenever I pointed out the flaw in certain technique in reference to the presumed attack being unrealistic, I was taken as stating that MA does not work.

To clarify, MA works, provided that you train realistically. If you use defence techniques against knife attack to engage in a knife fight against trained knife fighter, then it won't work.

The idea is there is no choice but to die or defend.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Question, what's the difference between a knife fight and defence against a knife attack?

A knife fight could be taken as both fighters have knives.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by akja
Double hand trap. You grab his wrists (on the the outside), your fingers and thumb go from the outside of the wrist and over the top to the inside. Your just reaching out straight and grabbing both wrists, your hands are better position because they are both on top. You can strike or whatever you like.

Heres 4 pics that are "similar" to the double hand trap. The first, upper left is not exactly a double hand trap but very close. My right hand has his left hand trapped at his wrist. My left hand should be trapping his outside right wrist with my left hand and my fingers wrapping over the top of the wrist, instead of riding the top of his arm, which is just as good for me. Its important to have your thumbs along side your fingers to allow your swift movement to come.

The next 3 pics are just examples of how you can, after taking control of both of his arms, manuever your hands and ultimately your attack with quick, simple and direct movements.

That is a good fighting range for me and the double hand trap really leads to an endless amount of offense and defense.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
What if you're a trained knife fighter without your knife?

I have to believe that something will work. It sounds so absolute the way you put it.

Trained knife fighter w/o my knife? Hmmm.... Against another trained knife fighter ?

Well, to be brutally honest with you, a trained knife fighter (w/ his /her knife) will almost always prevail. I know some people will get indignant and want my head over this. But the experienced fighters will tell you that is the case. (Of course we are talking about a "competent" trained knife fighter. And we are talking about "almost always prevail". Needless to say that nothing in life is absolute.

Put your self in the picture. Suppose you are holding 2 sharp knives (push daggers would be better suited) in your hands. And now you are going to just treat them simply as extension of your hands. So you will strike (punch and kick) the way you normally would. Do not think in terms of stabbing and cutting or slashing. Just in terms of your bare hand strike and block techniques. Now, don't you think suddenly your lethal power has suddenly gone up 10X. Instead of a punch that hurts, you have a punch that wounds. Instead of blocking your knife hand strikes, your opponent is asking to be filletted. Instead of warding off your kicks, he has to be concerned about your hands that follow.

Suddenly, all the trapping may no longer work. Tangling with sharp knives is not the same as tangling with bare hands.

That is how a sharp edged weapon magnifies your power.

Everyone assumes that the knife fighters are just like the idiots portraited by Hollywood, who are there to be the punching bags for the good guys. lol

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
Been there, done that.

Then you should know better...