Self Defense Techniques - How Many?

[Koryuhoka]

Great post and replies!

An Okinawan Karateka who I was in the presence of, said that the root of the Kanji for Kata is used to describe a mold. Like when you make a foundation for a building… you make the forms to pour the concrete into. This is Kata’s meaning if you look into the root-word.

Xue Sheng… you mention that the word kata doesn’t even enter into the MA you do. I believe that the “Hsing” in Hsing I, uses part of the character that is also used for Kata. I may be wrong so I will check to make sure.

UpnorthKyosa, I agree that technique is kata and kata is technique. Absolutely, hands down. The technique is the application of kata and the particular kata movement is the form(mold, shape) of a technique. They are one in the same.

Could it be that the word kata is neither plural nor singular, but it expresses a concept. Like the trajectory of a rifle. You look straight into the sight but the round rises and drops.

I will say that the technique came before kata and the kata was formed(there goes that word again) to put the techniques into a frame but each technique also is a shape or form, being the pattern your body flows through while doing the movement to get the desired effect.

How many techniques? One of my teachers says “I don’t know, I don’t care, I just do my form”. There are many more techniques and variations than we can conceive. There are applications we have not discovered.

Where do the techniques begin in a kata? I say at the Rei.

K.

 

[melj7077]

A very useful concept I was taught was that there are a handful of techniques and a lot of variations. Take a look at your techniques and see which ones are truly different and which ones are simply variations on a theme.

The ones that are truly different from each other are the "handful" while all the rest are probably the variations. Variations will give you food for thought but ultimately you are going to forget the pre-sets and simply use your knowledge to guide your actions.

All martial artists are supposed to learn their material so they can perfect it then forget it and just use it. The only real reason for remembering material is so you can teach a system to other people. But you should be moving toward a point where you can "do".

The form of kenpo jujitsu I teach is based on the katas I teach which I believe contain the handful of techniques that satisfy the focus of the style. Presets are particular answers to particular problems which teach you tactical theory. Therefore, they are examples of the rules of motion. Teach too many techniques and you rob the student of the ability to think for themselves and create for themselves. Too many techniques and your art becomes a memeory drill. But, give them too few and certain answers are missed. The variations may be important and the student may not actually think of it for themselves.

 

[Flying Crane]

A very useful concept I was taught was that there are a handful of techniques and a lot of variations. Take a look at your techniques and see which ones are truly different and which ones are simply variations on a theme.

The ones that are truly different from each other are the "handful" while all the rest are probably the variations. Too many techniques and your art becomes a memeory drill. But, give them too few and certain answers are missed. The variations may be important and the student may not actually think of it for themselves.

Very good comments here. I agree.

 

[Ross]

So what do we think of our techniques?

Personally, having now "finished" the system, our school actually lost a few dan grades for the reason that a lot of the full techniques or finish offs were completely unrealistic.

I would certainly argue that more does not mean better. And motion for the sake of motion is wasted (wasnt that a Kenpo term - economy of motion LOL).

I understand that the original Kenpo system finished at Purple belt but students wanting more and more techniques from EP resulted in him presenting them with what they wanted.

Just wondered how everone else find the techniques. Less is more?

 

[Flying Crane]

So what do we think of our techniques?

Personally, having now "finished" the system, our school actually lost a few dan grades for the reason that a lot of the full techniques or finish offs were completely unrealistic.

I would certainly argue that more does not mean better. And motion for the sake of motion is wasted (wasnt that a Kenpo term - economy of motion LOL).

I understand that the original Kenpo system finished at Purple belt but students wanting more and more techniques from EP resulted in him presenting them with what they wanted.

Just wondered how everone else find the techniques. Less is more?

I find a lot of them to be unrealistic and repetitive. I agree that more is not automatically better, and I have been actively cutting techniques out that I don't have faith in.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

Back to the BJJ/kata/self defense argument.

I suppose it depends on the (apparently subjective) definition of kata. The closest thing in BJJ I could see considered a kata are some drills done on unresisting opponents (armbar to triangle to armbar, pummeling, escape drills, ect). These are used to warm up more then anything and they are not considered real training.

The way every BJJ class I have been to has been broken down is like this: warm up drills (closest BJJ comes to kata in my mind), technique is shown (instruction), then rolling (training). The reason I draw a difference between instruction and training is this; you learn of the technique when its shown to you, but you learn how to actually use it when rolling against a resisting opponent.

As for self defense techinques in BJJ, they are out there but they aren't the focus and are rarely taught. I have never seen them being required for a belt test, in fact many BJJ schools don't do structured belt tests (at least for low levels, higher belts may be different). Proper position and control is emphasized first and foremost in training and instruction.

 

[melj7077]

This thread seems to have ended but I thought I'd weigh in again anyway.

We are taught a lot of techniques and soemtimes fail to realize that what we are looking at are simply variations on a theme. But why do we need the variations?

I don't remember but this may have been a concept of Mr. Parker's that was related or learned by me somewhere but it's very valid. What would happen if one had the entire alphabet except for X? X is not found in a lot of words so why do you need it? Well, someday you might need to spell exit or exoskeleton. Though other words could be substituted that mean the same thing its better to actually have the X so you can spell the words.

The same is true of certain techniques. If your opponent is an average brawler then complicated techniques may not be necessary. In other words, you don't need an X.

But what if the opponent is skilled? Now you may actually find a need for those techniques or parts of them you thought you wouldn't need. Now you need the X.

But like the alphabet the number of techniques needed is actually limited, You just need to understand when to use an X and when you don't need it.