Self Defense Techniques - How Many?

[Makalakumu]

It is NOT done in a pre-arranged way. Therefore it is NOT kata.

Kata, in judo or jujutsu systems are starting points. When you first learn a technique, that is kata. There is a pre-arranged way that it is presented and variations on that theme are subsequently practiced.

The fact that you never do it in a pre-arranged way after you learn it, does not change the fact that it is still kata.

Look, I have nothing but respect for the way BJJ practices kata. I think it is great training. However, to say that it isn't kata in some way shape or form is not correct.

I have never heard anybody ever refer to what BJJ guys do as kata. You looked at book pictures and you get kata from that?

Partly...especially since Rorian Gracie described it as a kata list. Especially with the knife defenses...those were nothing but bogarted JJJ.

Mostly, I understand what kata is from my training in judo and jujutsu. When a beginner rolls with an instructor and the teacher stops the action to show the beginner how to do an armbar, that is kata. When an instructor says, "show me an armbar," and the student does it, that is kata.

While it is true that you don't have two people standing around practicing a techniques on unresisting partners, there is still a methodology that is conveyed. IMO, this is just another form of kata practice...a very effective form.

 

[shesulsa]

We have a couple thousand techniques.

 

[RoninPimp]

Kata, in judo or jujutsu systems are starting points. When you first learn a technique, that is kata. There is a pre-arranged way that it is presented and variations on that theme are subsequently practiced.

The fact that you never do it in a pre-arranged way after you learn it, does not change the fact that it is still kata.

Look, I have nothing but respect for the way BJJ practices kata. I think it is great training. However, to say that it isn't kata in some way shape or form is not correct.



Partly...especially since Rorian Gracie described it as a kata list. Especially with the knife defenses...those were nothing but bogarted JJJ.

Mostly, I understand what kata is from my training in judo and jujutsu. When a beginner rolls with an instructor and the teacher stops the action to show the beginner how to do an armbar, that is kata. When an instructor says, "show me an armbar," and the student does it, that is kata.

While it is true that you don't have two people standing around practicing a techniques on unresisting partners, there is still a methodology that is conveyed. IMO, this is just another form of kata practice...a very effective form.

-So whenever a technique is demonstrated it's kata? That is ridiculous. You have single handedly changed the definition of kata as I and everybody I have trained under (4th dan guys with 20+ years in Judo or 10 year black belts in BJJ) understand it. You are wrong.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not commenting on either position here, but kata is defined as:

A system of basic body positioning and movement exercises, as in karate or judo

A formal training exercise set

a pattern of defense-and-attack

It may help to have a common definition to work from here. Also I do not think Kata was the point of the original post.

 

[Makalakumu]

So whenever a technique is demonstrated it's kata?

Yes.

That is ridiculous. You have single handedly changed the definition of kata as I and everybody I have trained under (4th dan guys with 20+ years in Judo or 10 year black belts in BJJ) understand it. You are wrong.

Take a look at the definition posted above. There are many permutations allowed in that. I think that if you have an overly narrow idea of what kata is. I've trained under 6th dans in jujutsu, 4th dans in judo and jujutsu, and I've trained under bbs who have 25 or more experience in their arts. They've all seen and experienced BJJ and the common opinion is that it is good kata training.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Kata or not, it is good training.

 

[RoninPimp]

It sounds like kata guys expanding their definition of kata. To try and say in effect "those guys are doing kata just like us". Pathetic vicariousness imo. I don't know a single person in BJJ that would describe anything in BJJ as kata. The founders of BJJ don't use the term either. Training in BJJ does not look like kata in any other MA I've ever seen.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It sounds like kata guys expanding their definition of kata. To try and say in effect "those guys are doing kata just like us". Pathetic vicariousness imo. I don't know a single person in BJJ that would describe anything in BJJ as kata. The founders of BJJ don't use the term either. Training in BJJ does not look like kata in any other MA I've ever seen.

Like I said, I am not commenting on either position here, basically I'm not taking sides.

And the word kata doesn't even enter in to the martial arts that I do.

As far as BJJ, I just figured out you are talking about Brazilian Jujitsu. I do not know BJJ, but I would never associate kata with it either.

I was just posting the definition as I found from 3 different sources.

And let me revisit these definitions for a second.

A system of basic body positioning and movement exercises, as in karate or judo - A system, this could be interpreted as a group of moves put together of an entire system meaning a martial art itself. I would not agree with calling any martial art a kata. There are katas in martial arts, but a kata is not a martial art.

A formal training exercise set - this uses the word set, meaning, at least to me more than one. Therefore I would not think one kick; one joint lock or one punch could be defined as a kata.

A pattern of defense-and-attack - this too is referring to more than one. So a two person form, as those done in many CMA styles could fall under this definition, but I would still not apply the word kata to CMA anymore than I would apply Kung fu to a Japanese martial art. This definition also implies that a trained punch and a trained block can be defined as a kata. Maybe so, but way back in my Japanese martial arts days a punch and a block did not a make kata make. Nor did an attack and a take down.

 

[stone_dragone]

To the best of my knowledge, none of my karate instructors had a specified list of techniques for self-defense. After analyzing the training under each I find that there are a certain # of techniques that are prefered (duh, right?). I can't say that I especially like the idea of a "catalogue" of specific techniques for specific situations. When I am teaching self-defense, I try to tailor it to the student instead of teaching from a technique list. Since my class is relatively small, it makes it much easier to do that. So any attempt on my part to say that our system has X many techniques would be inaccurate at best.

What I do, however, to keep the subject managable is teach from a fairly specific list of situations that a person is either likely to face or that teach a basic moving principle that is applicable elsewhere. The actual techniques taught will be added to, relpaced or subtracted as necessary to be able to teach what my students need.

I do feel that kata is the heart and soul of karate training and focus alot on the use of bunkai for self-defense as well. This is not to teach specific situations either, but to put self-defense and fighting techniques into a context that they can be understood. In essense, I suppose I could count the number of techniques per kata, the number of applications for each and then add the Judo Goshin Jutsu-esque techniques that I teach out of the context of kata and add them all up, but that'd take too long...the sun's coming up, man!

A question that I have had regarding self-defense techniques as they are known to kenpo systems comes from my own confusion in the same. What is called a "Technique" in kenpo looks like a "long combination" to me. I have always been certain that it is just a matter of semantics, but I had to ask, while I was here.

 

[still learning]

We have a couple thousand techniques.

Evening in running....many styles and ways....techniques...UM? ..fast, slow, slower, medium,fast, long, short style, hard run,soft run, wet,dry,cold,shoe methods, non-shoes,up, downs,jump running,hopping, high hill, low hills,zid-zag, best to use combintions.

Practice this many times to build memory......so little time? ...so much to learn.................gotta run now!.......Aloha

 

[Flying Crane]

My system has more then 400 total techniques or combinations there of.

for curiosity, what system is this? thx

 

[Flying Crane]

A question that I have had regarding self-defense techniques as they are known to kenpo systems comes from my own confusion in the same. What is called a "Technique" in kenpo looks like a "long combination" to me. I have always been certain that it is just a matter of semantics, but I had to ask, while I was here.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying. I think it is the same concept, different name. But with Kenpo, often these are codified as a formal part of the curriculum, and not generally subject to change, at least as far as keeping it a standard base to teach and train from. Of course real application would require a lot of change on the fly, but in practicing them, as a base, they are kept the same.

 

[Robert Lee]

Self defence drill prearranged drill help you learn a different possible application Forms katas and such have different amounts of strike and defence counters Agin they are put together application training for solo training in a way. How many hand movements depends on the form. Understanding the appliaction is from open drills and light at least contact spars Wher you learn to apply what you have been training. even joint manipulation or ground applications used to be said If you can put a person in such and such hold. You need to know at least 3 ways to get out of that hold. Makes some sence As you could end up on the recieveing end And not be able to go on. But a person that knows 400 hand movements and a person that knows 50 Well it depends who knows better how to perform them in real life action. So alot means little if you can not apply And a liitle means alot if you can get it working. As there is so many entrys with just 1 hand movement it is compound to many areas of use.

 

[BlackSheep]

But a person that knows 400 hand movements and a person that knows 50 Well it depends who knows better how to perform them in real life action. So alot means little if you can not apply And a liitle means alot if you can get it working.

Yes

 

[still learning]

Hello, In the real world....ask the Professonal fighters....they will tell you..they have 3 or 4 things that always work for them. When you are facing a nightmare confrontation....you will not be able to react to all the things you learned. But knowing 1 or 2 things that will work all the time...may save your life. (off course once you do the 1 or 2, other things will kick in too hopefully).

In adrenline situtions, the fears, your mind and heart will be racing. "Is this really happening to me.....he got a ? ...what should I do? .....than you wake up! ....whew? just dreaming.....hope only this happens to you?

Sweet dreams...good night..and Aloha

 

[Hand Sword]

for self defense keep it simple and straight froward. Definitely, a narrowing down of the number of techniques will aid you greatly. Learn a few- perfectly, and you'll be able to adapt them to the situations.

 

[MJS]

Depending on what school of Kenpo you're in, the techniques can range pretty high. IMO, I've always looked at the techniques as a foundation. They are something that should not be set in stone, but instead, teach you the basic fundamentals. From there, the student should be building off of those techniques to form their own natural reactions to an attack.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

Depending on what school of Kenpo you're in, the techniques can range pretty high. IMO, I've always looked at the techniques as a foundation. They are something that should not be set in stone, but instead, teach you the basic fundamentals. From there, the student should be building off of those techniques to form their own natural reactions to an attack.

Mike

I agree with what you are saying here. I think often the tendency is to teach techniques and then leave it at that. Instead, I think the techniques should just be taught as an idea, with a lot of room to explore within that idea. It's really just a shift in the mental process of how you look at them, but it can make a big difference in the long run. But what I think often happens is that they are taught in a certain way because they have been codified into a standard curriculum, and so they just get passed on that way and everyone memorizes them, with all the umpteen variations that go along with them. People get too attached to the curriculum, just because it's on a list that somebody made once upon a time, to the point of being unrealistic.

But each tech. has a main idea, a basic evasion and defense designed to survive the initial attack, that is the important part. Much of the rest of the follow-up, in my opinion should generally be removed because that part is easy to figure out what works on your own. It doesn't make sense to me to ingrain 47 follow-up moves into your muscle memory so that you just perform them automatically like a robot. A real situation is going to change and be unpredictable, and I think you are better off training your ability to adapt, instead of assuming all this predetermined movement is going to actually work.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with what you are saying here. I think often the tendency is to teach techniques and then leave it at that. Instead, I think the techniques should just be taught as an idea, with a lot of room to explore within that idea. It's really just a shift in the mental process of how you look at them, but it can make a big difference in the long run. But what I think often happens is that they are taught in a certain way because they have been codified into a standard curriculum, and so they just get passed on that way and everyone memorizes them, with all the umpteen variations that go along with them. People get too attached to the curriculum, just because it's on a list that somebody made once upon a time, to the point of being unrealistic.

But each tech. has a main idea, a basic evasion and defense designed to survive the initial attack, that is the important part. Much of the rest of the follow-up, in my opinion should generally be removed because that part is easy to figure out what works on your own. It doesn't make sense to me to ingrain 47 follow-up moves into your muscle memory so that you just perform them automatically like a robot. A real situation is going to change and be unpredictable, and I think you are better off training your ability to adapt, instead of assuming all this predetermined movement is going to actually work.

I agree, "assuming all this predetermined movement is going to actually work" is a real problem. If this is what is happening then you are applying a static way of thinking to a very fluid situation and that can be dangerous.

However I do think technique or forms is a good way to get a basic understanding of the martial art you practice.

Also I came across this today on the web

"It is important that technique is not the end of an art. Those good in technique, regardless of the art they pursue, are not necessarily able to teach the true meaning of an art."

 

[Flying Crane]

However I do think technique or forms is a good way to get a basic understanding of the martial art you practice.

I agree with this as well. I think there needs to be a proper balance. These scenario SD Techniques are good, esp. in the early stages, to give a student something concrete to work with. For a beginner, if things are abstract and hidden as can be the case with kata or forms, that is also difficult to use. But the problem that I see with the SD tech. approach is that they all too easily become overdone both in quantity, as well as becoming overly complicated and unrealistic. I think the fewest of these as possible, keeping them as simple and realistic as possible, while still being reasonably thorough with regard to variety of attacks, makes sense. Just what the magic number his, however, I am sure is another matter of debate.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with this as well. I think there needs to be a proper balance. These scenario SD Techniques are good, esp. in the early stages, to give a student something concrete to work with. For a beginner, if things are too abstract and hidden, that is also worthless. But the problem that I see with the SD tech. approach is that they all too easily become overdone both in quantity, as well as becoming overly complicated and unrealistic. I think the fewest of these as possible, keeping them as simple and realistic as possible, while still being reasonably thorough with regard to variety of attacks, makes sense. Just what the magic number his, however, I am sure is another matter of debate.

Good point.

I believe this is the very reason so many people have problems with joint locks/Qin na. So many variations to learn, train with, and remember...when, in reality, you may only need a 1/2 a dozen or so, possibly less, that you are very good at.

But you need the basics to make those few that you know work.