Dillman

[loki09789]

...i just don't like the fact that oyota has been doing what Dillman is doing before Dillman was even born. And i don't like that Dillman is tking all the creidit :asian:

the fact is that chronologically, Oyata was born before Dillman, yes. So what. And I don't really see anything on the website that would indicate that Dillman is claiming to take 'all the credit' for anything. If he has become the 'household name' associated with Tuite/RyuKyu arts in America, so be it. Call him a good marketer. We live in America, if he did a better business run than others, that is different than being the most skilled artist...

I'm half Okinawan and got to stay there for a year during my service days...no one really knows who Dillman is over there from what I remember (or at least that was how it was back in the early 90's) so, if it is still that way, the Okinawans don't really pay too much attention to him. This is a popularity issue more than a credibility issue.

If you want to make a difference, publish an article somewhere, write/talk to Dillman direct, but this is just venting.

 

[RRouuselot]

Just as a side note to all of this. Mr. Oyata has never envied Dillman's success ( I asked him), he was more concered with his ability to demonstrate the art......he did dislike the fact that Dillman used the name of his assoc..... Ryukyu Kempo which Dillman was not a member and basically abused the name so badly that Mr. Oyata decided to change the name of his assoc. so as not to be confused with what Dillman was doing.
Mr. Oyata has never really been interested in writing a lot of books and making millions from an art that is very personal to him. Has written one book about his training, his teachers and some other things and it has a few things about pressure points but is by no means a "how to manual" on it.

 

[RRouuselot]

If you want to make a difference, publish an article somewhere, write/talk to Dillman direct, but this is just venting.

Over the course of 20 years I have had many chances to communicate with Dillman.........it is not venting.
You have jumped into to something you know absolutely nothing about.

 

[loki09789]

Over the course of 20 years I have had many chances to communicate with Dillman.........it is not venting.
You have jumped into to something you know absolutely nothing about.

Ah, details, no, I don't. Can I recognize when this "Friendly Discussion" forum is going to become a forum for smeering a reputation by talking about them instead of to them/or finding personal satisfaction from past contacts? Yup.

Have fun, but remember this the next time people complain about smeer tactics in political campaigns or 'demonizing' the enemy by pidgeon holing them into the "sell out" box.

 

[RRouuselot]

Ah, details, no, I don't. Can I recognize when this "Friendly Discussion" forum is going to become a forum for smeering a reputation by talking about them instead of to them/or finding personal satisfaction from past contacts? Yup.

Ya know Dillman said he loved both good and bad PR about him.....he said either way he got his name out there.

 

[ppko]

1) Dillman trash talked Mr. Oyata for years claiming he "kicked his ***" in a fight and all sort of other BS. ppko this was waaaaaaaay before your time with Dillamn so I expect you never heard any of the BS Dillman was spreading about my teacher. Although lately Dillman has stopped or cut back his trash talking.......why? Maybe it's because so many folks have gotten wise to him.

2) In a 1984 July issue of Karate Illistrated Dillman says about his first demo he attended given by Mr. Oyata and I quote Dillman here: "it's like nothing I have ever seen before"........Hohan Soken died in 1982 by the way.

yes it was way before my time, I do not know what happened then from first or second hand accounts. As I have never inquired but I do know that he no longer bashes Oyata.
George learned a lot from Oyata and he admits that. And I am sure that what he was shown was very spectacular. I know that when I saw someone first go out with a light touch it was most deffinately like nothing that I have never seen.

 

[Sin]

Oyota=Traditional
Dillman=Americanized

 

[loki09789]

Ya know Dillman said he loved both good and bad PR about him.....he said either way he got his name out there.

Then I guess even mentioning any of this is only helping him in the long run, which doesn't seem to be SIN's intention or yours based on the details and reactions to my posts.

I still say take the beef to him if there is one, talking about them instead of to them isn't going to make a difference in how they do business it seems.

 

[Sin]

i would personally like to see what Oyota and dillman have pesonally to say about this thread. i mean really what would these 2 martial artists say about this whol discussion? Would they agree to an exibition match, or exchanging of ideas.....

 

[RRouuselot]

Then I guess even mentioning any of this is only helping him in the long run, which doesn't seem to be SIN's intention or yours based on the details and reactions to my posts.

My only "agenda" is that certain facts based on my first hand knowledge be put forth about Dillman. I could careless if Dillman's books sell a million copies a day.

 

[ppko]

Well maybe i need to rephrase my accusations.......Dillman can probably beat me up...maybe not my insructors but that is for another tread/argument...And i am sure what Dillman teaches is good stuff...and I am not saying it dosen't work...only thing I am saying is that he got rich off the stuff, marketing it....so in other words he whould be considered a sell out...Now we have to go back to the never ending debate on..."Well if ya got it flaunt it" kinda deal...like he pop singers of today that are all about money...I mean honestly who really likes matallica's new music...we al least after the law suit with Napster and cutting there hair......New isn't always better..I would really like to her a debate between someone ho has trained with oyota and someone who has trained with dillman...now i know many of you are prolly angry with me for bringing tis up...only thing I am really trying to do is put somethings to rest, and to expand my own knowledge on the subject as well. Please i do not intend to anger anyone...i would just like to know more on the subject. And if it takes raddling a few chains then so be it...i just don't like the fact that oyota has been doing what Dillman is doing before Dillman was even born. And i don't like that Dillman is tking all the creidit :asian:

Dillman does not take all the credit, he lists his instructors and the people that have helped him out over the years. People were also doing what Oyata was doing before he was born so what does that mean, it does not take away from the man nor the character..

 

[RRouuselot]

i would personally like to see what Oyota and dillman have pesonally to say about this thread. i mean really what would these 2 martial artists say about this whol discussion? Would they agree to an exibition match, or exchanging of ideas.....

Mr. Oyata doesn't think about Dillman......he never mentions him and has more important things to think about I am sure.

 

[loki09789]

Mr. Oyata doesn't think about Dillman......he never mentions him and has more important things to think about I am sure.

So based on the PPKO and RRouselot posts the message could be that it is between the two of them and leave it at that?

 

[BushidoUK]

Just another point about the "swastika" symbol.

I believe, if my memory is right, the swastika was a mirror image of a symbol meaning peace that is still used by the Shorinji Kempo Temples. I can not remember its name though, but I remember seeing it on the handles of several Katanas at Leeds Rotal Armouries and also on the Flags at the Dojo of a Shorinji Kempo Documentary. Hitler liked the image, reversed it and gave it its bad name.... abit like how the extreme right have highjacked the National flags of England and the United Kingdom.

 

[ppko]

So based on the PPKO and RRouselot posts the message could be that it is between the two of them and leave it at that?

Agreed.

 

[Flatlander]

My only "agenda" is that certain facts based on my first hand knowledge be put forth about Dillman. I could careless if Dillman's books sell a million copies a day.

Interestingly, as I have previously noted here in this thread, sometimes things tend to get repeated. The desire to put forth these facts has been previously satiated here, I believe, and I see no really good reason to reopen a previously degenerative topic. :asian:

 

[Sin]

I want people to know that i do not bad mouth there practices...i really don't. i mean if your good enough at TKD then you could beat anyone if you wanted. all i am worried about are the Mcdojo guys out there saying that there hardcore and they know everyting and there always right, even after they are show true proof of what has relly come to pass. Now, i can understand PPKO's loyalty to his instructor's teachings, just as long as he can see mine and RRousolets (sp) views as well. There is no bad blood betweem me and another Martial Artist, its all really a learning experince and all of our experinces are differant. heck I stared learning MA in a cluttered garage in the middle of winter, and i am sure that not everyone has done that. Many times it has been expressed by PPKO "Dillman never claimed all creidit for his art" Well he didn't say he didn't take all the credit either..

if anyone can get a personal comment from dillman or Oyota it would be the only thing that can put all of this to rest. but I do admit this has been a really good debate and I would love to go on and on, but it seems like some people are repeating themselves and we need to move on, if anyone can get new info from oyota or dillman, please show them this thread, it would be a great thing for them to see. to see that they both have such a high fan base that there are bigger discussions on them then in the Star trek boards thread opn who was a better captain picard or kirk.

to some extent we are all being fanboys

Definition- Fanboy: someone who supports something they have or know, just because they own or know something.

example: if someone owns a xbox they are gonna say that they xbox is the bes next gen video game console ever and all others stink. Well thats not the case, each game system where designed for peopple of differant tastes,
I.E. Gamecube:kids (Animal Crossing)
xbox: First person shooters (halo)
PS2: Platformers (racthet and clank)

so in the long run we are all going to support and stand behind with what we have. except for the few that but all the game systems or in other words, For people who train and reserch in multiple arts and not just there own.

i know I got off task a little there but I hope you all see my point. in the long run we are all part of the martial arts family. Some are brothers some are cousins and some are Grandparents. Stories (tech.) passed down from generation to generation, altered little by little with each generation. Witch is why we need to be as true to the old ways as possible. just rememmber your Dojo mottos/Kune. :asian:

 

[chinto01]

What are we arguing about?? We are discussing two people that unless you are a direct student of them or know them personally that could probably give 2 hoots about any of us. This bickering back and forth is what holds us back as martial artists. I believe the masters of old had it right when they referred their senior students to other teachers because they admitted they could no longer further their training at certain things. Until we can all play nice in the sandbox with eachother than the martial arts will always be in turmoil. Who cares about who teaches what to who or how it was taught or if someone stole this technique from someone else. Is not the goal of the martial arts to better the individual?? I know this sounds a little tacky and all but after being pretty involved in a situation like this between my dojo now and my old instructors dojo we are missing the idea of the martial arts. Development of mind, body, and spirit. Remember also there are 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs,and in the middle lies the truth.

 

[loki09789]

to some extent we are all being fanboys

Definition- Fanboy: someone who supports something they have or know, just because they own or know something.

example: if someone owns a xbox they are gonna say that they xbox is the bes next gen video game console ever and all others stink. Well thats not the case, each game system where designed for peopple of differant tastes,
I.E. Gamecube:kids (Animal Crossing)
xbox: First person shooters (halo)
PS2: Platformers (racthet and clank)

:asian:

Unlike a gameboy/xbox...what ever, Oyata and Dillman are real people who know each other and have found a way to resolve this situation (if it even is one for them) to their satisfaction. It is their issue, not ours/yours/anyone elses.

This continuous hedging is getting like the mother from "Everybody loves Raymond" when she sticks her nose in things that involve her only by association but she has no real stake or decision making power in.

Bickering like this leads to factioning, bad blood and (more so in the old days) the 'school duel' which is the martial arts equivalent of gang warfare...

let them figure it out or ask them direct instead of creating contraversy here for no reason.

 

[ppko]

Unlike a gameboy/xbox...what ever, Oyata and Dillman are real people who know each other and have found a way to resolve this situation (if it even is one for them) to their satisfaction. It is their issue, not ours/yours/anyone elses.

This continuous hedging is getting like the mother from "Everybody loves Raymond" when she sticks her nose in things that involve her only by association but she has no real stake or decision making power in.

Bickering like this leads to factioning, bad blood and (more so in the old days) the 'school duel' which is the martial arts equivalent of gang warfare...

let them figure it out or ask them direct instead of creating contraversy here for no reason.

I can't agree more which is why for the most part I try not to down anyone or there teacher. I have before but for the most part it is when I have taken the defensive. If there is a problem it does not involve me nor anyone else on this forum it would be between them (I am sure that there is not a problem between Oyata and Dillman as Oyatas writing is on everyone of Dillmans blackbelt certificates) now lets get back to discussing the Martial Arts