Death sentence on television?

[billc]

Tez, I will admit it would be a mercy in some ways but the necessity of those time are far less than all the other times an abortion is committed.

 

[Blade96]

Sex ed. isn't going to solve this problem. We've had sex ed. all over the states and we will always have kids having babies, especially kids with bad or no parents. It still doesn't justify killing a baby. Especiallly when many on the pro-abortion side will not execute murderers like jeffery Dhamer or John Wayne Gacy. They will spend all the money it takes to keep these guys alive, but immediatly want to adopt the abortion route for the innocent baby.

a decrease in teenage pregnancies over the decade was attributed to an increase in birth control use. So yeah sex ed works.

 

[MJS]

Sex ed. isn't going to solve this problem. We've had sex ed. all over the states and we will always have kids having babies, especially kids with bad or no parents. It still doesn't justify killing a baby. Especiallly when many on the pro-abortion side will not execute murderers like jeffery Dhamer or John Wayne Gacy. They will spend all the money it takes to keep these guys alive, but immediatly want to adopt the abortion route for the innocent baby.

Didn't say that it would solve the problem, but perhaps, and we've had this discussion on here many times before, but perhaps, if the parents got with the program, and weren't living in this fantasy world, in which their kids would not have sex until marriage, perhaps if the schools, a church, someone, anyone, with the qualifications to do so, taught kids about birth control, actually *gasp* handed out condoms, maybe there wouldn't be so many kids having kids! Keep in mind, many times, when the situation isn't right, the state ends up paying. Frankly, and I know I have no say in the matter, but I hate the thought of paying for someone else, because they didn't know any better.

 

[ballen0351]

so if you know at a few weeks into the pregnancy that the child if born is going to have a short life full of pain and misery you would still make the mother go through with the pregnancy, so she can spend nine months knowing the baby is going to be born with a condition that will make it's short life a living hell.

You'd make a woman who stupidly got pregnant because she didn't insist her rapist wore a condom has to give birth to a child which may well have AIDs for example, she has to feel the rapists child put there by force and pain grow inside her? hasn't she been violated enough with having to endure this? and if the woman kills herself rather than be forced to carry this baby?

That's just two thoughts I had, I can think of hundreds of other reasons a woman would need an abortion, not just for 'convenience'.

From what I've read of sex education in the States it doesn't seem very informative, at least not in the way Europeans approach it. The age it starts seems too old as well. the age they start with sex education in the Netherlands is at about 5, they have the lowest rate of unmarried teenage pregnancies in Europe as well as the highest average age for losing their virginity which is 19. they must be doing something right.

Again you rape and medical hardship argument which is alway throw up like its the #1 reason to keep abortion is wrong. 93% of abortions are done just because the mother dont feel like being a mother.

 

[MJS]

If the girl is younger than 15, at 12 or 13 for example, there is a good medical reason to have an abortion, a child's body is rarely equipped to carry a baby at that age, neither the foetus or the girl is unlikely to be unharmed by the pregnancy.

Point taken. Of course, hopefully this'll be a 1 time thing, until the girl is old enough and mature enough to actually have and keep the child. Again, this is where education may help. Probably wont solve the problem, but its better than nothing.

I think a good many 15/16 year olds do actually have their babies which are either adopted or the parents help bring it up, we certainly have many teen mothers here. Abortion didn't seem to be their choice, I think it rarely is to be honest. The sheer amount of young unmarried mothers seems to disprove that abortion is the first choice of these girls. I totally agree though that the parents are responsible but then again there seems to be a lot of them who were very young when their children were born so I guess the girls certainly learn from their parents or mother at least.

And thats fine. By all means, if the girl and her family are capable of raising the child and giving it the best possible care, by all means, keep it. As I said in my OP, there should be a good reason for having the abortion.

 

[billc]

Tez, doctors are wrong too. The old host of fox and friends, a fox morning show, was told that it was possible her baby would be diabled and she might die if she went through with the pregnancy. she went throug with the pregnancy anyway, the baby was fine and she was fine. She has like eight kids alltogether.

 

[MJS]

Rape victims account fopr 1% of the 40 million abortions that are done a year.

Sad fact is this will never change until people decide that a human life is valuable and we should not be able to walk into a clinic have a baby sucked out of us and walk next door to the gas station and grab a soda and a bag of chips and head home.

You are reading my posts right? Because you will notice that I said:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1350625&postcount=68

"I'm not against abortion, but I do feel that there should be a good reason for having one, before its done. For example...if someone was the victim of a rape, sure, in that case, I could see the woman wanting to have one. Perhaps she doesnt want to carry this memory with her for 9mos.

OTOH, the 15yo that has sex, gets pregnant, but suddenly the light goes off, and she thinks, "Oh, what am I going to do now? How am I going to raise this baby??" should not be able to run to the nearest clinic and get an abortion, because she had sex, and didn't understand the consequences. Of course, this goes back to the education, which the majority of it should fall on the parents."

Heres what I found, regarding your stats:
http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#Why Abortions Are Performed

The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control

Gee, isn't this what I was talking about in my OP???

Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;
1% because of fetal abnormalities;
3% due to the mother's health problems.

While you and billcihak seem to be very passionate about this topic, please understand that your views are 1 of many out there on this topic. That being said, like it or not, others are entitled to their opinions.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, you would be amazed at what people will do to adopt children. I see stories all the time of people who adopt children with horrible disabilities and help them to make lives for themeselves. It is one of the good things I see out of humanity. If they cannot be placed in these loving homes, then the state would need to take care of them or help the families that need the help. I saw a program with a woman who had 3 or 4 daughters, who because of medical mistakes, yes, here in the U. S., the girls lost the abilitly to see or hear. they were three helen kellers. I think that first, private charities should step in(Bill and Melinda Gates, Oprah, and Warren Buffet, I hope you do a lot of this stuff) and if not, I would be more than happy for tax dollars to help these families. I think we could shave the money out of the budget by getting rid of a few tiny wasteful programs. These girls needed 70,000 dollars a year each for the trained teachers to help them learn how to just live. Not to mention everything else that would go into their lives. Let's spend the money for the people who really need it.

I suspect your thoughts would not go down well with many of your fellow countrymen though I applaud your willingness to put your money where your mouth is, it's good to know someone has socialist leanings in wanting to do the best for others. As we have a NHS the cost of those children is carried by us anyway.
There are a great many conditions however that mean there isn't hope for children to live even a reasonable life.
What about this couple who turned off their babies life support?
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article6911242.ece

Warning, you will cry if you read this.

 

[billc]

How about a lighter question, something not about sad cases of unwanted children. Who here believes that murderers should get the death penalty, wether or not it is legal in Canada, britain or the U.S. I know I do. Anyone else?

 

[billc]

Tez, I can't get past your link. I'll keep trying.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, I can't get past your link. I'll keep trying.

Some things seem to not allow other countries to see them, I've had that problem before. I can't really copy it up as it's a long article but I will if you can't get it.

Anyway sorry I'm bowing out, it's bedtime here! Been nice 'arguing' with you, honestly, no I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it! I will catch up with you again Take care.

 

[MJS]

How about a lighter question, something not about sad cases of unwanted children. Who here believes that murderers should get the death penalty, wether or not it is legal in Canada, britain or the U.S. I know I do. Anyone else?

Im all for it, again, providing that it meets certain criteria, ie: someone who steals a car...no, the dp isn't for them. Someone who does a home invasion, burns the house down, kills 3 of the 4 occupants, such as what happened here in Cheshire, CT, yes, those dirtbags should fry!!!

Sad reality though...the dp is frowned upon here in CT, and there're many who're sitting...and sitting and sitting and sitting and sitting. The only difference between life in prison and the dp, is that you're segregated from gen. pop, when you're on death row.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I am asking you tez, what do you think, should a rapist be executed, and should a rape victim be allowed to execute the rapist?

I have to say, a fully formed human being in the womb is not considered alive until the umbilical cord is cut, and can be murdererd with the only consequences being, whatever those letters mean, I guess, aggravated assault and battery. Do you think that is right Tez?

No. Yes, they do it in some countries, but if that seems attractive to you, move.:ultracool

 

[aedrasteia]

Ballen

Fact is a simple one but is not the "Fun" choice. Fact is you don’t want a baby don’t have sex but that’s no fun. You want to be able to go out on a Friday night sleep with whoever you want and not be burden with a baby. Take some responsibility keep your legs closed and we wont have to have this argument but it’s just easier to kill the baby later.

does this apply to men? If not, why not?

If it does, how would you enforce it?

if abortion becomes illegal in the US, what should be the legal penalty applied
to women who have abortions? should there be any legal penalties for the males?

I have no interest in an argument with you but i am curious about your
answers to these questions.

with respect, A

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen



does this apply to men? If not, why not?

If it does, how would you enforce it?

if abortion becomes illegal in the US, what should be the legal penalty applied
to women who have abortions? should there be any legal penalties for the males?

I have no interest in an argument with you but i am curious about your
answers to these questions.

with respect, A

I’ve said before I hold men accountable in this it takes both to get pregnant. Anywhere I say keep legs closed feel free to change with keeping his zipper up.

If abortions were illegal I’m not sure what the penalty should be for the woman. Since my entire argument on the matter is because I believe the baby is alive and a human then I would think she should be charged with some type of child abuse charge. In my state we have a charge for child abuse that leads to death or serious bodily harm. That would fit I think. However I think punishing the woman won’t do any good you have to go after the person that performs the abortions.

As for the male if you could prove the male helped play a part in the abortion like paying for it or taking her to the clinic you could get an accessory charge or conspiracy charge which would have the same penalty.

The real way to solve the issue I feel is education, not just about sex but about options like adoption.
Ive stated before I was adopted and I have met my birth mother. She has told me many times that she wishes she would have kept me. She said she felt hopeless at the time but things got better and she sees now she could have made it.

Abortion kind of reminds me of suicide. When we deal with a suicidal person its their darkest day. They can’t see that tomorrow will be better. They cant look past the now. We are taught to try to make them see that there will be a tomorrow and things can get better. Having a baby and an abortion is similar in my mind. The mother is in her darkest day she cant see past the gloom and doom she feels of being burdened with a baby. She cant see that 2 yrs or 3 yrs from now things could be great and she will have her little baby boy with her and a loving family. However Abortion like suicide is forever once its done it can never be taken back. Having a baby is tough for everyone no matter if you’re ready or not but it gets better.

 

[granfire]

I’ve said before I hold men accountable in this it takes both to get pregnant. Anywhere I say keep legs closed feel free to change with keeping his zipper up.

If abortions were illegal I’m not sure what the penalty should be for the woman. Since my entire argument on the matter is because I believe the baby is alive and a human then I would think she should be charged with some type of child abuse charge. In my state we have a charge for child abuse that leads to death or serious bodily harm. That would fit I think. However I think punishing the woman won’t do any good you have to go after the person that performs the abortions.

As for the male if you could prove the male helped play a part in the abortion like paying for it or taking her to the clinic you could get an accessory charge or conspiracy charge which would have the same penalty.

The real way to solve the issue I feel is education, not just about sex but about options like adoption.
Ive stated before I was adopted and I have met my birth mother. She has told me many times that she wishes she would have kept me. She said she felt hopeless at the time but things got better and she sees now she could have made it.

Abortion kind of reminds me of suicide. When we deal with a suicidal person its their darkest day. They can’t see that tomorrow will be better. They cant look past the now. We are taught to try to make them see that there will be a tomorrow and things can get better. Having a baby and an abortion is similar in my mind. The mother is in her darkest day she cant see past the gloom and doom she feels of being burdened with a baby. She cant see that 2 yrs or 3 yrs from now things could be great and she will have her little baby boy with her and a loving family. However Abortion like suicide is forever once its done it can never be taken back. Having a baby is tough for everyone no matter if you’re ready or not but it gets better.

The what ifs.
But the fact is that many of these women who keep their child are not making it, they are condemned to everlasting poverty and their children are condemned to repeat the cycle.
Don't kid yourself: raising a child is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Tez3]

I’ve said before I hold men accountable in this it takes both to get pregnant. Anywhere I say keep legs closed feel free to change with keeping his zipper up.

If abortions were illegal I’m not sure what the penalty should be for the woman. Since my entire argument on the matter is because I believe the baby is alive and a human then I would think she should be charged with some type of child abuse charge. In my state we have a charge for child abuse that leads to death or serious bodily harm. That would fit I think. However I think punishing the woman won’t do any good you have to go after the person that performs the abortions.

As for the male if you could prove the male helped play a part in the abortion like paying for it or taking her to the clinic you could get an accessory charge or conspiracy charge which would have the same penalty.

The real way to solve the issue I feel is education, not just about sex but about options like adoption.
Ive stated before I was adopted and I have met my birth mother. She has told me many times that she wishes she would have kept me. She said she felt hopeless at the time but things got better and she sees now she could have made it.

Abortion kind of reminds me of suicide. When we deal with a suicidal person its their darkest day. They can’t see that tomorrow will be better. They cant look past the now. We are taught to try to make them see that there will be a tomorrow and things can get better. Having a baby and an abortion is similar in my mind. The mother is in her darkest day she cant see past the gloom and doom she feels of being burdened with a baby. She cant see that 2 yrs or 3 yrs from now things could be great and she will have her little baby boy with her and a loving family. However Abortion like suicide is forever once its done it can never be taken back. Having a baby is tough for everyone no matter if you’re ready or not but it gets better.

You have thought things out in a very simplified matter, as if it's how things should be in a perfect world and sadly it's not. It would be a good world if no one ever needed an abortion or never committed suicide but in reality things are much bleaker and more horrifying.

Would you make a woman such as those in Bosnia or Africa who had been raped many times to go through with having the baby of her rapists, even those women who were after they were raped by many soldiers had their arms, hands and feet macheted off? You see it's not as simple as in your cosy world where a girl may get pregnant 'accidentally' and want an abortion as a convenience. There are women out in the world for whom carrying that baby would be a monstrous punishment, there are women who face carrying a very seriously ill and disabled child for whom their short lives would be a misery of pain.

You would be making decisions for people that you have no right to make. How would you feel if as a man you were told you would be castrated or made to have a vasectomy because of the beliefs of others or that the state said you had to have these operations done? It's not different from what you are talking about, your beliefs would have you force women to go through something many could not endure. This is a decision that is best left to each woman.

Yes education from an early age and proper sex education at that would help as would proper adoption procedures. However imposing the will of others on people is never going to be good, this time it would be your views on abortion but you are opening the gates to others views on other subjects being imposed on you.

You also seem to think that all suicides are merely fed up and will come out the other side smiling if they are 'rescued' however this isn't the case. For many ending their life is the only way out of the dark life they are in, for other terminally ill or disabled people choosing when the end of their life comes is something they wish to plan for. Again while any suicide is sad sometimes we have to pause and think that the person has to make the choice for themselves however unpalatable it is for us. somethings are simply none of our business and abortion is one of those subjects. Live as you wish but grant the grace of letting others do the same.

 

[ballen0351]

You have thought things out in a very simplified matter, as if it's how things should be in a perfect world and sadly it's not. It would be a good world if no one ever needed an abortion or never committed suicide but in reality things are much bleaker and more horrifying.

Would you make a woman such as those in Bosnia or Africa who had been raped many times to go through with having the baby of her rapists, even those women who were after they were raped by many soldiers had their arms, hands and feet macheted off? You see it's not as simple as in your cosy world where a girl may get pregnant 'accidentally' and want an abortion as a convenience. There are women out in the world for whom carrying that baby would be a monstrous punishment, there are women who face carrying a very seriously ill and disabled child for whom their short lives would be a misery of pain.

You would be making decisions for people that you have no right to make. How would you feel if as a man you were told you would be castrated or made to have a vasectomy because of the beliefs of others or that the state said you had to have these operations done? It's not different from what you are talking about, your beliefs would have you force women to go through something many could not endure. This is a decision that is best left to each woman.

Yes education from an early age and proper sex education at that would help as would proper adoption procedures. However imposing the will of others on people is never going to be good, this time it would be your views on abortion but you are opening the gates to others views on other subjects being imposed on you.

You also seem to think that all suicides are merely fed up and will come out the other side smiling if they are 'rescued' however this isn't the case. For many ending their life is the only way out of the dark life they are in, for other terminally ill or disabled people choosing when the end of their life comes is something they wish to plan for. Again while any suicide is sad sometimes we have to pause and think that the person has to make the choice for themselves however unpalatable it is for us. somethings are simply none of our business and abortion is one of those subjects. Live as you wish but grant the grace of letting others do the same.

How many suicidal people do you deal with? How many have you talked out of it and get to meet them a year later and have them hug you and thank you for saving them and they have never been happier? I’m not talking about terminally ill again you like to throw the extreme case to make your argument like rape victims. Terminally ill suicides make up a small% of the total # of suicides each year. I also quite frankly dont care if someone kills themselves its your body do what you want to it. My problem with Abortions is its someone else’s body that is being killed. Its a separate and individual life and deserves to be born. It does not get the choice its killed because the mother says ok kill it.

Here is a question for you. A woman gets pregnant and decides to have an abortion. The babies father finds out before it happens and asks her not to says ill raise my baby you will never have to see it I wont ask for any help from you just have the baby and give it to me. Is it still the woman’s choice? That baby is just as much the fathers?

Another question for you. You proud that your country wont give a baby a right until its cord is cut. So if a woman is 8 months pregnant do you think she should be allowed to have an abortion after all the cords not cut its still her body.

You keep bring up Africa and Bosnia I don’t care about them they can do what they want I only care about my country and fixing it. I don’t want to control any other countries but mine. Id be happy if we left every other country alone to include not sending them billions of my hard earned money. But unfortunately my Govt does not agree with me.

 

[ballen0351]

You would be making decisions for people that you have no right to make. How would you feel if as a man you were told you would be castrated or made to have a vasectomy because of the beliefs of others or that the state said you had to have these operations done? It's not different from what you are talking about, your beliefs would have you force women to go through something many could not endure. This is a decision that is best left to each woman.

.

Nobody is forcing a woman to have an operation. The woman made a choice to get pregnant. She knows if I have sex I might get pregnant. Its of her own free will. At that point she has now created another human. At that point that other human has just as much right to be alive. If she did not want to get pregnant then dont have sex.

By the way before the what about Rape blah blah blah. Ive already said If you want to allow rape victims to have an abortion then go for it. I dont agree but atleast the pregnancy was not done of free will.

 

[granfire]

Nobody is forcing a woman to have an operation. The woman made a choice to get pregnant. She knows if I have sex I might get pregnant. Its of her own free will. At that point she has now created another human. At that point that other human has just as much right to be alive. If she did not want to get pregnant then dont have sex.

By the way before the what about Rape blah blah blah. Ive already said If you want to allow rape victims to have an abortion then go for it. I dont agree but atleast the pregnancy was not done of free will.

You are assuming.
You are assuming that people actually know that sex carries the chance of pregnancy.

Sadly too many people still don't know that, even adult ones. Heck, even people who have been married sometime don't grasp the concept. They are either never taught or are really this dense...

However, no matter how much a man tries to think himself into the situation, there is no way one will ever know how it feels to be pregnant. Much like I won't ever be fully able to appreciate a kick to the groin from a man's perspective.
So your proposal is forcing 9 month plus a lifetime on a woman.
Giving you child up for adoption is also not without stigma in our society, regardless of how many couples are waiting for an infant to adopt.