Death sentence on television?

[ballen0351]

Ah I just love ignorance.

Ballen, firstly no one is pro abortion, what people are for is pro choice.

My friend had an abortion, it was the saddest day of her life, she didn't make the decision lightly but really there was no decision, it was that or give birth at term of a dead baby.
You would of course advocate the birth of a dead baby. You would also advocate that raped women should give birth, that women who have been victims of incest give birth and women whose baies would be doomed to a life of horrendous disablement should give birth. You would advocate too that a druggie gives birth to a drug addict baby? Or an alcoholic?
If you could persuade a woman not to have an abortion would you personally look after and raise that child? Or are all your arguments academic along the lines of you mustn't have an abortion it's wrong because I say it is?

I've heard all the arguments for the anti abortion people, how they hold the belief that life is scared while they justify killing medical staff, old hat that. I'v heard all the arguments about how abortion is used for contraception because women are too lazy to get the pill etc.

The truth is something you won't want to believe because it doesn't suit you and that's that women because they are ones that carry the baby are the ones that have the right to chose. Few women have an abortion lightly and most carry the knowledge of what they have done for the rest of their lives but they believe it was right to do what they did. It's not for you to say and it's not for you to condemn them, in fact it's nothing to do with you what another women does, it's not your baby and it's not your body.

You condemn abortion but you live in a country that allows the death sentence, many innocent people are murdered by the state but that doesn't seem to bother you.

Well I’m not against an abortion if it’s for a real medical reason and puts the mother’s life at risk but it better be a real medical condition.

You friend would have given birth to a dead baby? Then the baby was dead when she had the abortion correct because if not how did she know? I’ve seen guys shot in the face with a shot gun that should be dead and are not. if the baby is dead then there is no birth.

Rape is a very horrible thing I’ve seen the effects first hand. I’ve interviewed rape victims. However is it the baby’s fault his father is a criminal? But I’ll play what % of abortions are done on rape victims? The facts say less than 1%. So sure I’ll even say let rape and incest victims have an abortion.

Should druggies have babies? nope. They should keep their legs shut.

If a woman is "forced" to have the baby no I don’t need to take care of them (even though I already due thru taxes) Give the baby up for adoption. OR Keep their legs shut and they won’t have to worry about it.

I’ve not once said killing medical staff is ok. So I’m not sure how that is even relevant


The truth is something you won't want to believe because it doesn't suit you that 93% of Abortions are done for social reason like, darn it I don’t want no baby that would be a drag, 6% are for medical reasons, and 1% is a victim of rape or incest. So it is used as a form of contraception because women are too lazy to get the pill etc.

Show me one innocent person that was put to death since we reinstated the death penalty that fact is there have been zero.

Fact is a simple one but is not the "Fun" choice. Fact is you don’t want a baby don’t have sex but that’s no fun. You want to be able to go out on a Friday night sleep with whoever you want and not be burden with a baby. Take some responsibility keep your legs closed and we wont have to have this argument but it’s just easier to kill the baby later.

 

[ballen0351]

I love some of the logic of the anti abortion people…

Keep government out of our lives, no government interference, we have rights under the constitution!!! Oh yeah BTW, let’s interfere in that woman’s right to have an abortion because we think its for her own good, and we know better on how to run her life then she does….

What about the baby's right to stay alive?

 

[billc]

The primary role of the government is to protect American citizen's, so yes, an unborn baby is an American citizen. Providing for children given up by their parents is one role the government should take, so, the woman should have the baby and give the baby up for adoption, that would be the least traumatic response to an unwanted pregnancy, including rape and incest. The child would be alive, and later in life, the mother could try, if she wanted to have contact with that child. It would be less haunting to know the child is alive somewhere experiencing life, and the mother would not have to question wether or not she actually killed a baby through her abortions or wether is was a group of cells.

Nine months is about the same as the baseball season or a school year here in the states. Then the woman is done, the two can seperate and go their own ways.

Here are some questions for the pro-choice crowd.
1-should rape be a death penalty offense?
2-should the victim of the rape be allowed to execute the rapist?

 

[Tez3]

Well I’m not against an abortion if it’s for a real medical reason and puts the mother’s life at risk but it better be a real medical condition.

You friend would have given birth to a dead baby? Then the baby was dead when she had the abortion correct because if not how did she know? I’ve seen guys shot in the face with a shot gun that should be dead and are not. if the baby is dead then there is no birth.

Rape is a very horrible thing I’ve seen the effects first hand. I’ve interviewed rape victims. However is it the baby’s fault his father is a criminal? But I’ll play what % of abortions are done on rape victims? The facts say less than 1%. So sure I’ll even say let rape and incest victims have an abortion.

Should druggies have babies? nope. They should keep their legs shut.

If a woman is "forced" to have the baby no I don’t need to take care of them (even though I already due thru taxes) Give the baby up for adoption. OR Keep their legs shut and they won’t have to worry about it.

I’ve not once said killing medical staff is ok. So I’m not sure how that is even relevant


The truth is something you won't want to believe because it doesn't suit you that 93% of Abortions are done for social reason like, darn it I don’t want no baby that would be a drag, 6% are for medical reasons, and 1% is a victim of rape or incest. So it is used as a form of contraception because women are too lazy to get the pill etc.

Show me one innocent person that was put to death since we reinstated the death penalty that fact is there have been zero.

Fact is a simple one but is not the "Fun" choice. Fact is you don’t want a baby don’t have sex but that’s no fun. You want to be able to go out on a Friday night sleep with whoever you want and not be burden with a baby. Take some responsibility keep your legs closed and we wont have to have this argument but it’s just easier to kill the baby later.

You're a medical doctor as well then to say whether my friend's baby was alive or dead? It wasn't dead but was going to die before it came to term.

As I said, it really isn't anything to do with you what women want and I'd thank you not to start putting words in my mouth as to what suits me and what doesn't.

Ken put it correctly, you don't want interfence in your life by by jove you'll interfere in others!


So no one has ever been executed in the whole of the United States that wasn't guilty, yeah right pull the other one.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent

Georgia Board to Pardon Woman 60 Years After Her Execution - The Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles has announced that it will issue a formal pardon this month for Lena Baker (pictured), the only woman executed in the state during the 20th century. The document, signed by all five of the current board members, will note that the parole board's 1945 decision to deny Baker clemency and allow her execution was "a grievous error, as this case called out for mercy." Baker, an African American, was executed for the murder of Ernest Knight, a white man who hired her . Baker was tried, convicted, and sentenced to die in one day by an all-white, all-male jury. Baker claimed she shot Knight in self-defense after he locked her in his gristmill and threatened her with a metal pipe. The pardon notes that Baker "could have been charged with voluntary manslaughter, rather than murder, for the death of E.B. Knight." The average sentence for voluntary manslaughter is 15 years in prison. Baker's picture and her last words are currently displayed near the retired electric chair at a museum at Georgia State Prison in Reidsville. (Atlanta Journal-Constitution, August 16, 2005).


South Carolina Pair Exonerated 94 Years After Execution - The South Carolina Department of Probation, Parole and Pardon Services voted 7-0 to pardon Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin for the 1913 murder of former Confederate Army veteran John Q . Lewis. The pair were executed in 1915 for the murder after another man, Monk Stephenson, plead guilty and received a life sentence in exchange for implicating the Griffins. "Stevenson later told a fellow inmate that he had implicated the Griffin brothers because he believed they were wealthy enough to pay for legal counsel, and as such would be acquitted," said legal historian Paul Finkelman. Two others, Nelson Brice and John Crosby, were also executed for the crime. The pair were great uncles of nationally syndicated radio show host Tom Joyner. "It's good for the community. It's good for the nation. Anytime that you can repair racism in this country is a step forward," Joyner said. (CNN.com, October 15, 2009


Takes a long time to get justice doesn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

Acoording to this 100 people who have been condemned to death have been released because they weren't guilty, lucky it was found out before they were killed isn't it?

 

[Tez3]

The primary role of the government is to protect American citizen's, so yes, an unborn baby is an American citizen. Providing for children given up by their parents is one role the government should take, so, the woman should have the baby and give the baby up for adoption, that would be the least traumatic response to an unwanted pregnancy, including rape and incest. The child would be alive, and later in life, the mother could try, if she wanted to have contact with that child. It would be less haunting to know the child is alive somewhere experiencing life, and the mother would not have to question wether or not she actually killed a baby through her abortions or wether is was a group of cells.

Nine months is about the same as the baseball season or a school year here in the states. Then the woman is done, the two can seperate and go their own ways.

Here are some questions for the pro-choice crowd.
1-should rape be a death penalty offense?

2-should the victim of the rape be allowed to execute the rapist?

So you are willing to pay your taxes to provide for other people's children but not for health care for poor people, oh that's very droll.
If you are against abortion stop being a 'socialist' and leave people to make their own decisions, also stop volunteering other peoples tax money to pay for the upkeep of children.



As for your questions 1 and 2 we are a civilised society, we don't have the death penalty.


As for women who have been raped, like the African women I pointed out, what a good idea making them have the babies, it wouldn't be at all traumatic would it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_Bosnian_War

A medical study of 68 Croatian and Bosniak victims of rape during the 1992-1995 war found that many suffered psychological problems as a result. None had any psychiatric history prior to the rapes. After the rapes 25 had suicidal thoughts, 58 suffered depression immediately after and 52 were still suffering from depression at the time of the study, one year later. Of the women 44 had been raped more than once and 21 of them had been raped daily throughout their captivity. Twenty nine of them had become pregnant and 17 had an abortion. The study reached the conclusion that the rapes had "deep immediate and long-term consequences on the mental-health" of the women.

read it and weep for these women.

 

[ballen0351]

You're a medical doctor as well then to say whether my friend's baby was alive or dead? It wasn't dead but was going to die before it came to term.

As I said, it really isn't anything to do with you what women want and I'd thank you not to start putting words in my mouth as to what suits me and what doesn't.

Ken put it correctly, you don't want interfence in your life by by jove you'll interfere in others!


So no one has ever been executed in the whole of the United States that wasn't guilty, yeah right pull the other one.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent

Georgia Board to Pardon Woman 60 Years After Her Execution - The Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles has announced that it will issue a formal pardon this month for Lena Baker (pictured), the only woman executed in the state during the 20th century. The document, signed by all five of the current board members, will note that the parole board's 1945 decision to deny Baker clemency and allow her execution was "a grievous error, as this case called out for mercy." Baker, an African American, was executed for the murder of Ernest Knight, a white man who hired her . Baker was tried, convicted, and sentenced to die in one day by an all-white, all-male jury. Baker claimed she shot Knight in self-defense after he locked her in his gristmill and threatened her with a metal pipe. The pardon notes that Baker "could have been charged with voluntary manslaughter, rather than murder, for the death of E.B. Knight." The average sentence for voluntary manslaughter is 15 years in prison. Baker's picture and her last words are currently displayed near the retired electric chair at a museum at Georgia State Prison in Reidsville. (Atlanta Journal-Constitution, August 16, 2005).


South Carolina Pair Exonerated 94 Years After Execution - The South Carolina Department of Probation, Parole and Pardon Services voted 7-0 to pardon Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin for the 1913 murder of former Confederate Army veteran John Q . Lewis. The pair were executed in 1915 for the murder after another man, Monk Stephenson, plead guilty and received a life sentence in exchange for implicating the Griffins. "Stevenson later told a fellow inmate that he had implicated the Griffin brothers because he believed they were wealthy enough to pay for legal counsel, and as such would be acquitted," said legal historian Paul Finkelman. Two others, Nelson Brice and John Crosby, were also executed for the crime. The pair were great uncles of nationally syndicated radio show host Tom Joyner. "It's good for the community. It's good for the nation. Anytime that you can repair racism in this country is a step forward," Joyner said. (CNN.com, October 15, 2009


Takes a long time to get justice doesn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

Acoording to this 100 people who have been condemned to death have been released because they weren't guilty, lucky it was found out before they were killed isn't it?

I’m no doctor I was just saying I don’t buy the excuse you friend used but if it makes her sleep better at night.

And trust me dear I put nothing in your mouth.

I guess you didn’t see where I asked show me one since we reinstated it which was in 1976. There were problems before that so the Supreme Court suspended it in 1972 and it was reinstated in 1976. Since then there have been no cases of wrongful death. and the fact that 100 people were released shows the system works.

How many innocent children have been killed since 1976?

 

[billc]

1-should rape be a death penalty offense?
2-should the victim of rape be allowed to execute the rapist?

 

[Tez3]

I’m no doctor I was just saying I don’t buy the excuse you friend used but if it makes her sleep better at night.

And trust me dear I put nothing in your mouth.

I guess you didn’t see where I asked show me one since we reinstated it which was in 1976. There were problems before that so the Supreme Court suspended it in 1972 and it was reinstated in 1976. Since then there have been no cases of wrongful death. and the fact that 100 people were released shows the system works.

How many innocent children have been killed since 1976?

You really couldn't be more offensive if you tried could you?

 

[ballen0351]

As for your questions 1 and 2 we are a civilized society, we don't have the death penalty

.

Really yet you have no problem with giving babies the death penaly Civilized huh

 

[ballen0351]

You really couldn't be more offensive if you tried could you?

Cant beat the message so attack the messenger right?

 

[CoryKS]

Yay, another abortion thread. I would have thought that the collective arguing power of the internet would have settled this issue years ago.

All I'll say is that I wish they would define a status for a fetus and then consistently apply it. If, for example, it is not an act of killing to perform an abortion, then how can a murder charge be drawn against someone who, by negligence or through the commission of a crime, causes a pregnant woman to lose her baby. Oops, I mean fetus. Oh hell, see? I don't know what it is, it's like Schrodinger's Fetus or something.

 

[billc]

My go to guy on the subject of the death penalty is Dennis Prager who wrote the book "Think a second Time."

"That an innocent person may be executed is the one moral argument against capital punishment. Nonetheless, the remote possiblity of an innocent person's execution does not invalidate the death penalty. For one thing, judicial and technological safeguards(e.g., DNA testing) could be erected so as to make this all but impossible. Some safeguards may not now be strong enough. For example, in instances in which conviction is based on a single witness with no other corroborating evidence such as finger prints, hair samples, etc., a person should not be sentenced to death.

BUT EVEN WITH THE BEST SAFEGUARDS, AN INNOCENT PERSON MIGHT STILL BE EXECUTED AND THAT IS A HORROR. STILL,

FAR MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE WILL BE MURDERED IF THERE IS NO DEATH PENALTY THAN IF THERE IS. MURDERERS WHO ARE NOT EXECUTED WILL MURDER OTHER PRISONERS AND PRISON GUARDS, OR THEY WILL ESCAPE OR BE RELEASED ON PAROLE AND MURDER CIVILLIANS OUTSIDE PRISON.

OUR CHOICE IS CLEAR--EITHER THE REMOTE POSSIBILITY OF AN INNOCENT PERSON BEING EXECUTED IF THERE IS A DEATH PENALTY, OR THE CERTAINTY OF MANY MORE INNOCENTS MURDERED WITHOUT THE DEATH PENALTY. NOTHING IS RISK FREE-FROM DRIVING AN AUTOMOBILE(IN WHICH SOME FORTY THOUSAND AMERICANS DIE EACH YEAR) TO THE DEATH PENALTY.

Mike huchabeee, as a govenor commuted the sentence of a convicted murderer, the guy then moved to washington state and murdered several police officers who were having coffee. I would need to look up the exact details but that is just one case of innocent lives lost because the death penalty was not used.

 

[Tez3]

Yay, another abortion thread. I would have thought that the collective arguing power of the internet would have settled this issue years ago.

All I'll say is that I wish they would define a status for a fetus and then consistently apply it. If, for example, it is not an act of killing to perform an abortion, then how can a murder charge be drawn against someone who, by negligence or through the commission of a crime, causes a pregnant woman to lose her baby. Oops, I mean fetus. Oh hell, see? I don't know what it is, it's like Schrodinger's Fetus or something.

In this country an unborn child doesn't exist in law. If a pregnant women is murdered the charge can only be for the murder of the woman.

Abortion seems a big thing in the States, elsewhere in Europe it is a personal and private matter.


As for my friend who had to have a termination of pregnancy, I will say that it was a planned and very much wanted child, my friend was devastated and hasn't stopped grieving for the baby even now several years on, to say it was a matter of convenience is a gross insult.

 

[Tez3]

My go to guy on the subject of the death penalty is Dennis Prager who wrote the book "Think a second Time."

"That an innocent person may be executed is the one moral argument against capital punishment. Nonetheless, the remote possiblity of an innocent person's execution does not invalidate the death penalty. For one thing, judicial and technological safeguards(e.g., DNA testing) could be erected so as to make this all but impossible. Some safeguards may not now be strong enough. For example, in instances in which conviction is based on a single witness with no other corroborating evidence such as finger prints, hair samples, etc., a person should not be sentenced to death.

BUT EVEN WITH THE BEST SAFEGUARDS, AN INNOCENT PERSON MIGHT STILL BE EXECUTED AND THAT IS A HORROR. STILL,

FAR MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE WILL BE MURDERED IF THERE IS NO DEATH PENALTY THAN IF THERE IS. MURDERERS WHO ARE NOT EXECUTED WILL MURDER OTHER PRISONERS AND PRISON GUARDS, OR THEY WILL ESCAPE OR BE RELEASED ON PAROLE AND MURDER CIVILLIANS OUTSIDE PRISON.

OUR CHOICE IS CLEAR--EITHER THE REMOTE POSSIBILITY OF AN INNOCENT PERSON BEING EXECUTED IF THERE IS A DEATH PENALTY, OR THE CERTAINTY OF MANY MORE INNOCENTS MURDERED WITHOUT THE DEATH PENALTY. NOTHING IS RISK FREE-FROM DRIVING AN AUTOMOBILE(IN WHICH SOME FORTY THOUSAND AMERICANS DIE EACH YEAR) TO THE DEATH PENALTY.

Mike huchabeee, as a govenor commuted the sentence of a convicted murderer, the guy then moved to washington state and murdered several police officers who were having coffee. I would need to look up the exact details but that is just one case of innocent lives lost because the death penalty was not used.

Have you thought of being a stand up comedian? Your theories hold little water as those countries who've abolished the death penalty have shown.

Oh and please don't 'shout at us', it's rude.

 

[billc]

Sp again with a new question to clarify the issue:

1-Should rape carry the death penalty
2-should the victim of rape be allowed to execute the rapist?

Also, Tez,

If an unborn child has no standing in British law, if a woman's baby is killed at the nine month mark, on her way to the hospital for delivery, by a criminal, but she survives, there was no murder committed?

 

[billc]

Not shouting trying to highlight the important part

 

[billc]

More from Dennis Prager:The argument that an innocent person may be executed is the argument opponents most often offer, because it is the one moral argument against capital punishment, and because of that it appeals to people who are otherwise for executing murderers. Yet opponents of the death penalty are opposed to executing murderers even when their guilt is indisputable, such as Charles Manson or an Adolf Eichmann.

THEY USE THE ARGUMENT THAT AN INNOCENT MIGHT BE EXECUTED BECAUSE OF ITS DEBATING VALUE; IN FACT, OPPONENTS OPPOSE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT BECAUSE THEY THINK IT IS WRONG TO KILL MURDERERS, PERIOD.

THe Death penalty doesn't accomplish anything: the dead person cannot be brought back to life.

The first part of this argument isn't true, and the second mocks the intent of capital punishment. No one believes that capital punishment bbrings the dead back to life, although even if it did, I wonder how many abolitionists would come to favor the death penalty. But while it cannot revive the dead, capital punishment does revive the spirit of the dead persons loved ones. I have followed news reports of executions for ten years, and in the large majority of instances, the murdered persons loved ones express immense relief after the murderer is executed-"Finally, we can rest." As long as the murderer lives, there can be no closure; and until there is closure, healing cannot begin. Every day that a merderer is allowed to live, not to mention allowed his freedom, compounds the suffering of the victim's loved ones."

 

[ballen0351]

As for my friend who had to have a termination of pregnancy, I will say that it was a planned and very much wanted child, my friend was devastated and hasn't stopped grieving for the baby even now several years on, to say it was a matter of convenience is a gross insult.

I’ve already stated if there is a legit medical reason for the abortion I can except that.

I feel strongly about this topic for very personal reasons and I may let that cloud my judgment and resort to slightly nasty remarks. I was adopted. Had my Birth mother decided to take the easy road and abort me I would not be here. My children would not be here their children ( when they are older and have kids they are too young right now) will not be here. I finally met my birth mother when I was 22. We talked and she said she was actually on her way to a clinic got a block away and changed her mind. Put up the consequence of her actions of unprotected sex for 9 months and gave me up. I was adopted by a very great family who I love and they love me. So for me I feel I’m a voice for the babies that are killed at a rate of 40 million a year.
Even right this very second as I type this post I see my kids playing on the floor and I cant imagine aborting them. They are the love of my life and if I was not able to care for them I would at least like to know some place out there they were alive and being cared for if not by me then by someone.

 

[Tez3]

Sp again with a new question to clarify the issue:

1-Should rape carry the death penalty
2-should the victim of rape be allowed to execute the rapist?

Also, Tez,

If an unborn child has no standing in British law, if a woman's baby is killed at the nine month mark, on her way to the hospital for delivery, by a criminal, but she survives, there was no murder committed?

There is no crime as to the death of the unborn baby but depending on the injuries to the woman it could be GBH, ABH or an assault charge depending on how the assault was committed. Here the baby has to have the umbilical cord cut and be separated from the mother to be considered legally as a person.


I have already answered the questions 1 and 2, we don't have the death penalty so it's not a question for us, we don't belive you can have laws stating people shouldn't kill then acutally punish people who do by killing them. It's like hitting someone while saying you mustn't hit people.

 

[Tez3]

I’ve already stated if there is a legit medical reason for the abortion I can except that.

I feel strongly about this topic for very personal reasons and I may let that cloud my judgment and resort to slightly nasty remarks. I was adopted. Had my Birth mother decided to take the easy road and abort me I would not be here. My children would not be here their children ( when they are older and have kids they are too young right now) will not be here. I finally met my birth mother when I was 22. We talked and she said she was actually on her way to a clinic got a block away and changed her mind. Put up the consequence of her actions of unprotected sex for 9 months and gave me up. I was adopted by a very great family who I love and they love me. So for me I feel I’m a voice for the babies that are killed at a rate of 40 million a year.
Even right this very second as I type this post I see my kids playing on the floor and I cant imagine aborting them. They are the love of my life and if I was not able to care for them I would at least like to know some place out there they were alive and being cared for if not by me then by someone.

That's your story but for many many others it's not the same and you shouldn't assume it was, what you said was offensive.

There are too many stories of desparate women and desparate lives to generalise about women and abortion.

Much better rather than lecture us would be to campaign against abortion in places like China where it's forced on women by the State.